Sex before marriage?

[gadgetlady 4]

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

What is the reason that women should submit to men in everything? Why is the man the "head" of everything exactly?

When one "submits" they are yielding the authority and power of another.

Why do men have authority over women? Why do men have power over women?

Do you agree with this church statement? Are you ok with always yielding to the authority of your husband? And if so, why?

This statement absoultely places women in a subjugated position under the man, and it espouses the viewpoint that women are secondary to men, and are thus inferior.

I am fascinated that a modern woman would even consider allowing herself to be diminished in this way, and to be held in second place beneath her husband.

This is an excellent example of how organized religion subverts women.

I tried explaining this to a non-Christian woman once, several years ago, and she looked at me like I had two heads. Hopefully I'll do better this time.

In the Greek, there are two separate and distinct words for obedience and submission; they are not the same thing. The word used in this scripture is not the one for obedience. The word is often used in the same context when discussing military rank, etc. A functioning unit must have a head, and our children know that Daddy is the head of our household. I am valued and important and not ever treated as a second-class citizen. In fact, my husband believes that making me happy in the marriage is his responsibility. If I am unhappy, it is his duty to fix it. If the marriage failed, he would place the blame squarely on his shoulders.

This is how the whole thing takes form in our marriage: when we don't have the same opinion about something, we discuss it and try to see it from the others' point of view. If we can't reach a mutual agreement and an action has to be taken, I willfully submit to my husband's position. I find that I am generally a bit more hot-headed than he is and he can often take a much more even-keeled approach to things than I can -- so it's actually a very good thing. Sometimes he'll want me to not act on something, and when I don't I look back later and realize he was 100% right in his approach. Practically, does this mean I never ask my husband to do things for me, but I always do what he wants without question? No, not in the least.

You have to remember that that qualifier -- "as the church submits to Christ" is huge. Christ doesn't have any nefarious goals for His church. Also, the qualifier, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" is equally huge. Rather than unimportant, secondary, subjugated, inferior, or diminished, I instead feel important, honored, protected, and safe.

I am a well-educated, strong-willed woman. I am not inferior to my husband. We are partners. But in the rare circumstances when one course of action must be taken and we disagree on which way to go, I submit to him and have invariably found that to be the best way to go.

I hope I did the issue justice. I'm having a particularly awful day, so if something doesn't make sense I'd be happy to clarify.

[Jachut 487]

I'm like most of you too. I was the youngest in the family, never babysat except once which cured me from the whole idea of babysitting, and unruly kids drove me batty. I'm also like Green's mom, although I never liked other people's kids, I sure love my own like there's no tomorrow.

I only had two kids. I love them both completely but differently. Each of them has different traits and good qualities. They both have some things that I wish were a little different. I enjoy being with them one on one and hearing all their innermost thoughts and feelings. The best time for me though is when I have all my "chicks in one basket", my babies, their spouses and their babies. It's amazing when we're all together.

That's what I look forward to. I can easily imagine not having had children through this stage of my life, but I cannot imagine old age without family around me. It would be a very lonely place. I look at my mum and dad and what they get out of their now grown family, and its worth every sacrifice you ever make.

Same with my kids, I like having three because I know when I'm gone, they'll have each other.

[anonemouse 1]

We are partners. But in the rare circumstances when one course of action must be taken and we disagree on which way to go, I submit to him and have invariably found that to be the best way to go.

I don't want you to think I am attacking you, because this statement isn't intended in that way. I really want to try to understand you, but I don't know the best words to get my point across with sensitivity. That said, to me, these are two contradictory statements. To me, what you said is that your husband has the last word. If he agrees with you, you take that action. If not, it's what he says, goes. In other words, you are basically doing what he says, but believing that you actually had some input, when IMO you don't.

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't want you to think I am attacking you, because this statement isn't intended in that way. I really want to try to understand you, but I don't know the best words to get my point across with sensitivity. That said, to me, these are two contradictory statements. To me, what you said is that your husband has the last word. If he agrees with you, you take that action. If not, it's what he says, goes. In other words, you are basically doing what he says, but believing that you actually had some input, when IMO you don't.

Not really. Because many times he didn't originally see my point of view, and when he does he changes his opinion. It's only when we're at a stalemate, which is rarely, that one of us has to give in. And I choose that to be me. Not out of obedience, but out of respect for him. And he has a vested interest in making good decisions because -- as I said earlier -- the weight of the success of the marriage is on his shoulders. I'd rather be in my position than his

Anyone who knows us knows that our respect for each other runs deep. There isn't a person in the world who knows us in real life who would say he treats me as inferior, subservient, or below him.

[anonemouse 1]

See, I guess it just doesn't make much sense to me. I understand the intent behind it, but I guess I am just not made that way. I don't think it would even occur to me to always submit to a man just because he's a man and my husband. To me, the success of a marriage should depend on both spouses, not having the responsibility lay on the shoulders of one. I was raised to believe that I was completely equal to men, and that I should never let them treat me (by their actions or lack thereof) like I was second to them or like I was a fragile flower that needs to be protected.

But, differences are what make the world go 'round. This just happens to be one of those things that I don't think I'll ever truly understand, because it doesn't make sense to me.

[L8BloomR 1]

See, I guess it just doesn't make much sense to me. I understand the intent behind it, but I guess I am just not made that way. I don't think it would even occur to me to always submit to a man just because he's a man and my husband. To me, the success of a marriage should depend on both spouses, not having the responsibility lay on the shoulders of one. I was raised to believe that I was completely equal to men, and that I should never let them treat me (by their actions or lack thereof) like I was second to them or like I was a fragile flower that needs to be protected.

But, differences are what make the world go 'round. This just happens to be one of those things that I don't think I'll ever truly understand, because it doesn't make sense to me.

Gadgetlady, I loved how you explained this "submit" issue... beautifully said! But Laurend, I can understand how this would be hard to grasp, especially if you aren't married. Have you ever been really involved in an organization or business? You know that input is very important from all the principle members, but at some point there may be a stalemate. Someone has to break the impasse and that is usually the boss or supervisor. In a marriage that someone is often the husband but it is so different from a business. Remember that if a husband is admonished to love his wife like Christ loved His church, the husband will try hard to take into consideration the wife's feelings and points of view and find a compromise. Very rarely will a decision ever come down to a "Because I said so" type of solution. Many, many times my husband will see my point of view (I can be very persuasive when I want to ) and he will agree that my way can work. But just like most of us have strengths in some areas and weaknesses in others, spouses know these things about each other and will give way in areas that they are not as knowledgeable.... which certainly helps with the feeling that they are a team. I have never seen a truly Christian marriage that has a dictator as the head of the family. That would tend to be an unhappy marriage, and an unhappy marriage would not be very Christ-like in nature. I guess what I am trying to say is, that in a happy marriage both parties want to please each other, and therefore they don't see decision-making as a power struggle. They ultimately want what is best for their family, and they know that comes from letting the most knowledgeble one in a particular area make the final decision. The end result is more important than how they got there.

It is late so I hope I am making sense. This is a great discussion and I am really enjoying hearing all the different viewpoints!

Karen

[Jachut 487]

Totally disagree. We've never really come to a stalemate - all our decisions have been joint ones. If both of us dont agree on the same thing, we come up with a compromise. This goes for decision such as where we live, how we educate our kids etc. There is NO way one of us gets to make the decision with the other being totally happy.

Doug has no "expertise" over me in any area. Just because he's an accountant for example, doesnt mean he has any more say in the family budget.

The fact that we're total opposites can be problematic, but that's what makes things interesting.

[L8BloomR 1]

Totally disagree. We've never really come to a stalemate - all our decisions have been joint ones. If both of us dont agree on the same thing, we come up with a compromise. This goes for decision such as where we live, how we educate our kids etc. There is NO way one of us gets to make the decision with the other being totally happy.

Doug has no "expertise" over me in any area. Just because he's an accountant for example, doesnt mean he has any more say in the family budget.

The fact that we're total opposites can be problematic, but that's what makes things interesting.

You must lived a charmed life! I own a business and have been married 38 years.... and in both situations I have had situations come up where all sides of an issue had strong backing. In my business, after I hear everyone else's views, I have to sort through all the emotions and the thoughts and come to a conclusion. Not all will be happy with my decision, but as the saying goes, "you can't please everybody." Same thing in marriage....some decisions can not be a total win-win. Someone has to give in. It is wonderful that you and your hubby can both win, but I have not found that to always be the case in my world!

[Alexandra 55]

I'm another one mystified by a system of marriage wherein one person is always the one to "allow" the other to have the last word. In my marriage, certainly there are situations where one or the other of us will permit the other to make a decision, but it's an always-changing dynamic depending on the situation. Over the years we've discovered areas of expertise that are mine, and those that are his. There is no third party dictating which of us is the "head" and which is not. That concept is utterly foreign to me.

It's not analogous to a business or army unit, because in those situations there is indeed one person at the helm and everyone goes in with that understanding. A marriage is a partnership, not a unit with one person at the head.

[BJean 16]

My husband and I are opposites too. We have learned that when something is very important to one of us and not so important to the other (and that is almost 100% the case) the one who doesn't feel it is as important makes the compromise. In my house, my husband is the primary breadwinner. That gives his voice more weight when a decision involves his job (as in where we live) because it has a direct impact on how he does his job, but he still does not make those decisions without my input.

When we first got married, he used to tell me that if I were smart I would use my female-ness to manipulate him. I always told him that in my eyes, that would be unfair and I would never be comfortable doing that. Instead we talk through everything. Our families always thought we analyzed things too much. But that's the way we make decisions and that is the path we've taken that allows both of us to feel we are equal in this marriage.

As for male/female roles in their marriages, our DD and DS both have completely equal partnerships. While I tend to take care of most domestic things in our home, with my DH doing the usual man things like the yard, cars, etc., our kids don't make even that distinction in their marital roles. They do everything as a team, from the laundry and meals to the yard and cars and raising the kids. I like their way better than ours, but since our approach has worked so well for so long, I won't tamper with a good thing.

[BJean 16]

P.S. I feel that I need to add that when we were first married and struggling to find a way to make our marriage work, he was bahaving the way his father did by trying to be the dominate one in the marriage. I was behaving as my mother did and treated him like he was more important than I.

When we realized after two years that we were both very unhappy in our marriage, we consulted a psychologist and learned some very interesting things. First we realized that he was having to carry the weight of the world by making all of the important decisions and being the breadwinner, with the responsibility for all of us squarely on his shoulders 24/7. Second, I was feeling like I had no voice in anything of any importance and that I was totally a second-class citizen in our household. I wondered if HIS life was the only important one. I realized that this was MY LIFE TOO and that everything that happened to him had a direct impact on me.

We also talked about that in both of our parents' traditional marriages where the husband made most of the decisions, the husband and wife grew to resent each other over the years and they became hateful toward each other much of the time. We sure didn't want to live the rest of our lives resenting each other and feeling trapped.

With lots of reading and a serious willingness to make some changes, we evolved from following in our parents' footsteps to sharing everything with each other and discussing and understanding every aspect of our relationship and our household. It was not easy. It took quite a bit of effort, but we knew we were worth it as individuals and as a couple.

[anonemouse 1]

I think all of you have said what I was trying to say, only clearer. I was raised to believe that marriage is a partnership and that both spouses had to make compromise. To me, if one spouse gets their way whenever there is a disagreement, there is no compromise. To me, the idea that there is one dominant figure in the household is totally alien. In my parents' household, my dad is the primary breadwinner, but my mom is the one that pays the bills. If there are major decisions to be made, they make them together after discussion and both parties compromising, if necessary.

[green 6]

I am nowhere near as easy going by temperament as my husband. I care a lot more about my wants and desires and I am much more organised in my approach to life and so l usually have things my way. What I have had to learn is to spot when he really does care about something and to satisfy his wants. Even though I am an old dog this is has been a trick which I have recently learned and it has given us both great pleasure.

Neverthess, I suspect it is the one who has the more aggressive temperament in the couple who will tend to lead - and this may well be the woman.:omg:

[Wheetsin 714]

If someone leads our relationship it's me, but that's only by virtue of having the stronger personality, as Green has said. We still discuss major decisions and we still compromise, and see each other as equal contributors. For the most part, there are just lots of things DH doesn't care about, or prefers not to deal with.

If he had his druthers I wouldn't work, but I do and he enjoys that I do. We both enjoy the extra income, he enjoys that I excel at what I do - even though he doesn't really understand what I do. And he would never pressure me to stay at home, but he has made it known that if it's ever my desire, I will have his support.

Before we were married he said up front that he wanted me to handle all things money, so I do. We have a joint account, our checks are deposited, and unless I ask him to go look, or he asks me, he couldn't tell you what's in the account at any given point in time. He doesn't know what bills we have (other than the obvious), and has never yet bothered to memorize the login info for our banking. For the most part he doesn't care how much money I spend or what I'm spending it on - in his words, "As long as there's a roof over our head, food on our table, and clothes on our backs - I don't care."

I drive most decisions with house things, with his input - when he has any. Meaning decorating, what to do with this space, landscaping, etc. He sees the house as "my" territory, just as I see electronics "his". When we bought a new TV, for the most part he picked out what he wanted, then showed it to me for thumbs up or down. Superficial example, I know, but we recognize each other has strengths and knowledge, and that sometimes things are better if we keep our noses out of them.

On the surface we have very little in common. Movies, books, shows, activities with friends -- we're like night and day. But when it comes to the core issues that can really make or break a relationship, we're virtually identical. That works for us, and has left us with very few things we truly disagree on. The only one I can think of in the past year has been where to place lattice around the deck stairs. :faint:

[Carlene 12]

If I am unhappy, it is his duty to fix it.

Sorry, but I think this is nonsense. Your happiness is never someone else's responsibility. Nor is it possible to "fix" another's unhappiness. You are responsible for your own happiness.