What Takes More Faith????

[Wheetsin 714]

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

I think she is right on that idea.

Religion, like most things in life, can be (and often is) one of the things you're conditioned to have. That's not saying people are mindless and can't think for themselves - that everyone is a mouse running around in a big Skinner's box of life. Not at all. But when you learn - since birth or shortly after - that there is this thing called god, and you're taught from a very early age, even before you can make distinctions and apply critical thinking, that god is a "force" and everything we know is a result of that force - then of course people tend to believe what they do. At least at an early age, they truly don't know any different (e.g. they cannot yet reach the higher levels of the cognitive domain). And absolutely there are people who step back from the "training" as they get older and can, and question and scrutinize, and of course there are people who do not. But even the ones who scrutinize, are scrutinizing the validity of a belief system that's already in place, and that's different from scutinizing the validity of something that has never been in place. So we apply our higher cognitive abilities, and often yeah - it falls in line with what we "know"... maybe that's because we've learned that all these things others question are "miracles" and so it becomes, somewhat by definition, impossible to see things from a truly objective standpoint. And sometimes people feel and know in their heart of hearts that their faith is their true salvation. And sometimes people find too many questions are unanswered, there's too much "magic" involved, and they decide to leave the path of their faith to find answers that make more sense to them, or are a little more concrete. Faith is a pretty abstract thing, when you really think about it.

As an analgoy - and not a great one because age is more if a factor in this analogy than in the situation of religion -- Most children who are told about Santa believe in Santa. They can't quite yet rationalize to the point of seeing how Santa might actually be impossible (referring to the jolly icon, and not the "xmas spirit"). They believe it because it's what they've been taught to believe, and because as far as they can see, it makes sense. And then they get older, and their brain develops, and they begin to be able to scrutinize and differentiate, and all of a sudden - how can a man that's 3 feet wide get down a 2 foot chimney? How can one man go to every single house in the world in one night? How come Santa's writing looks just like mom's? And they will begin to question their faith. and begin to seriously evaluate something they've always accepted as a truth. And sometimes through their questions they learn Santa doesn't exist, and sometimes their beliefs are just confirmed. Eventually when people grow up they understand that there really isn't a rotund man who lives with elves... how they come to this understanding... different for everyone. For some it's because enough people tell them no that they believe no. For some they simply outgrow it, like trick-or-treating. For some, they see or witness/experience something that teaches them it's false. Some probably feel the pain of being laughed at by others who don't believe, so out of shame and pressure they no longer believe. And countless other scenarios. But if these prompts weren't in place, or if their questions about fitting down a chimney or handwriting could be answered in a way that allowed Santa to remain true to them, even if it couldn't be *proven*, and regardless of age they were constantly being reminded of how Santa is real and gets these things done... and every week/day/hour/minute they somehow paid respect to Santa, then heck yeah we'd have adults who still believed he was true.

Please don't take that analogy the wrong way. I'm not saying "god is like santa", or using the analogy as a way to say "god isn't real". I'm using it to explain "there's a process of logic and cognitive evaluation that occurs whenever we have to judge the probability or existence of something we can't experience in a tactile/solid sensory way, and all kinds of things can impact the outcome of that process."

But now take everything I just said and see it from the context of another religion. Or remove the religious references alltogether and replace them with ones of culture, or race, or...

Something that often comes up here & everywhere else that these kinds of issues are discussed is, "But we have so many versions of a belief system, and each one knows that they're the right one, but since they can contradict each other - obviously not all could be right." It's like having a hundred absolute realities (and no, for the record I do not believe in absolute reality). If it's an absolute reality, there can be only one. But all the different "rights" out there can't be right if there's dischord (even minor), or if there's mutual exclusion. So it can't be an absolute, and that's a part of why an awful lot of people who do not have religious faith see a whole lot of "doesn't make sense" in any religion that claims it's right.

[Wheetsin 714]

I should add, for Gadget, that even though our posts have some similar threads - don't take mine as a response to yours. I started mine before yours was posted. We'll just say great minds think alike.

[cal 0]

argue about. There is politics, wars, middle age, etc. etc.

Argue, debate, offend other subjects.

cal

[Wheetsin 714]

Pick another subject to..........

argue about. There is politics, wars, middle age, etc. etc.

Argue, debate, offend other subjects.

cal

Why can't we (who are involved in the debate) debate the topic of our choice?

[gadgetlady 4]

Why in Jesus and not in Allah?

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

That is not necessarily true. People come to different faiths through strange paths, and not always based on where they were born or how they were raised. I just read a fascinating article about a man who had been part of the radical movement that ousted the Shah of Iran in the 1970's. Needless to say, he was a convinced and radical Muslim, committed to exterminating "infidels". But now he is a peaceful and peace-loving Christian. In the article, he said:

The Qur’an itself says that the great prophet Mohammed (AD 570–632) was a sinner. Mohammed did not know whether he would go to Heaven or to Hell (Q.46:9). But even the Qur’an says that Jesus was perfect and holy and that He is living in Heaven (19:16–33). Many Muslims have come to the Lord Jesus, and this is one of the reasons.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

That is not necessarily true. People come to different faiths through strange paths, and not always based on where they were born or how they were raised. I just read a fascinating article about a man who had been part of the radical movement that ousted the Shah of Iran in the 1970's. Needless to say, he was a convinced and radical Muslim, committed to exterminating "infidels". But now he is a peaceful and peace-loving Christian. In the article, he said:

The Qur’an itself says that the great prophet Mohammed (AD 570–632) was a sinner. Mohammed did not know whether he would go to Heaven or to Hell (Q.46:9). But even the Qur’an says that Jesus was perfect and holy and that He is living in Heaven (19:16–33). Many Muslims have come to the Lord Jesus, and this is one of the reasons.

T he Qur'an says that Jesus was a prophet (or messenger) of Allah, but not the son of Allah even though Mary was impregnated through Allah's power. It also says Jesus died and rose again to life and went to Heaven. However, Allah equated all his prophets as equals though only Jesus was sin free.

*

019.016: And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,

019.017: And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

019.018: She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

019.019: He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

019.020: She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

019.021: He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

019.022: And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.

019.023: And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!

019.024: Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,

019.025: And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.

019.026: So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.

019.027: Then she brought him to her own folk, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Thou hast come with an amazing thing.

019.028: O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man nor was thy mother a harlot.

019.029: Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?

019.030: He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,

019.031: And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

019.032: And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.

019.033: Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!

019.034: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

019.035: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

019.036: And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.

019.037: The sects among them differ: but woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day.

019.038: See and hear them on the Day they come unto Us! yet the evil-doers are to-day in error manifest.

019.039: And warn them of the Day of anguish when the case hath been decided. Now they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.

019.040: Lo! We, only We, inherit the earth and all who are thereon, and unto Us they are returned.

*

It also says that accepting Jesus as God or son of Allah shall earn a person the eternal fires. I don't have enough time to find that part right now, but I know I read it.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

That is not necessarily true. People come to different faiths through strange paths, and not always based on where they were born or how they were raised.

That is true, but the vast majority of people will fall back onto the deity they were raised to believe in or the deity who the society they are in believes to be the true deity. It is human nature to try to fit in.

[Devana 0]

I sometimes think people call themselves 'Christian' because that is the basic tenets they profess or because their families have always claimed a belief in God/Jesus. This is not really being a 'Christian' and people get it confused.

Yikes. Really? I'm not Christian myself, but I have many Christian friends who would really have an issue with a statement like that.

[Sunta 5]

He pulls people out of Africa, even in the face of death and danger to everything they own. There are Asians who have risked their lives to share even one page of the Bible with other believers. Former Islamists sacrifice all they've ever known in order to follow Jesus Christ. This is

happening all over the world and has been since the time of Jesus Christ.

Well actually, it's missionaries that pull people out of where they live, and the faith they believe in, and convince them by sometimes unscrupulous means, to follow Christianity.

Thank you everyone for your heartfelt responses. It would be great, though, if someone would address my question about the bible being copied in certain parts, from earlier works.

I liked Tired Old Man's answer about maybe it's one God that goes by different names. Actually, I believe in a higher power (God if you want to call it that) and that different religions are manifestations/expressions of that higher power. Therefor, "Jesus" is God as much as Buddah, Krishna, you, or me. Maybe he was someone who found the God-like qualities within himself. But anyone can do that.

Leatha insinuated that I am the only one who believes that Jesus is not the one "true" God, and that 2 billion people can't be wrong. However, if one adds up the people in the world who do not believe in Jesus, the number far outweighs 2 billion! So now who's right going by that logic?

[Sunta 5]

But all the different "rights" out there can't be right if there's dischord (even minor), or if there's mutual exclusion. So it can't be an absolute, and that's a part of why an awful lot of people who do not have religious faith see a whole lot of "doesn't make sense" in any religion that claims it's right.

Exactly! Just by nature of there being many religions that claim they are the "right" one, it becomes impossible to prove which is "right".

Many people on here have said they believe through "faith", but what makes your faith any more valid than someone of the Muslim "faith"? Both have faith, but believe they are "right". To an impartial observer, there is no way to prove who is "right", especially when neither party wants to prove their doctrine and has no answers for tough questions regarding the authenticity of their doctrine, such as "why are portions of this doctrine copied from earlier writings about different God?"

[Sunta 5]

Tired Old Man: The Egyptian Book of the Dead has a few different translations, and unfortunately I don't remember which one I read back in school. If you Wiki it, you can find the authors who did translations of the ancient text.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Many people on here have said they believe through "faith", but what makes your faith any more valid than someone of the Muslim "faith"? Both have faith, but believe they are "right". To an impartial observer, there is no way to prove who is "right", especially when neither party wants to prove their doctrine and has no answers for tough questions regarding the authenticity of their doctrine, such as "why are portions of this doctrine copied from earlier writings about different God?"

I do not believe that my faith means that only people who believe in Jesus will go to Heaven. I believe that Muslims and Jews and others have just as much right to Heaven as I do. I believe that just because each Holy Book contradicts the other, that there is only one right way.

Example: The New Testament of the Bible says that you must go through Jesus, the son of God, to get to Heaven, while the Qur'an says that believing what Jesus was instructed to say by Allah will get you into Heaven, unless you believe that Jesus was the son of God (or a God himself). The Qur'an also says that you do not have to follow the teachings of Jesus, but that following the teachings of Moses or of Mohammed will also get you into paradise.

Actually, the paradise of the Qur'an is on Earth, rather than somewhere else. It might be considered a “Heaven on Earth”. Then again, according to "Revelations", Jesus will rule on Earth for 1000 years. So similar, yet so much debate.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Tired Old Man: The Egyptian Book of the Dead has a few different translations, and unfortunately I don't remember which one I read back in school. If you Wiki it, you can find the authors who did translations of the ancient text.

I will try that. Thanks again.

A Man (generic sense) can never have too much knowledge.

[Devana 0]

I sometimes think people call themselves 'Christian' because that is the basic tenets they profess or because their families have always claimed a belief in God/Jesus. This is not really being a 'Christian' and people get it confused.

I can understand how a strong believer of one faith can judge that theirs is right and another is wrong, even though I don't like those kinds of judgements. However, what I don't understand is how people of the same faith can judge each other like it appears that you're doing.

People have made immediate assumptions about things I've posted that have been way off base and I don't want to do this to you here. That's why I'm checking. Do you really mean this?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have never heard a more profound testimony than those changed by God and converted to the Christian faith from Islam. It is truly awe inspiring to hear their stories. So yea, it is 'human' nature to try to fit in, but sometimes, it is God's nature that overrides our human nature.

He pulls people out of Africa, even in the face of death and danger to everything they own. There are Asians who have risked their lives to share even one page of the Bible with other believers. Former Islamists sacrifice all they've ever known in order to follow Jesus Christ. This is happening all over the world and has been since the time of Jesus Christ.

I sometimes think people call themselves 'Christian' because that is the basic tenets they profess or because their families have always claimed a belief in God/Jesus. This is not really being a 'Christian' and people get it confused.

Being a Christian requires a personal relationship, inward and of the heart with Jesus Christ. It requires a renewal of the soul and a changed heart via the acceptance that Jesus Christ was indeed the son of God, sent to this earth as atonement for our sins. It requires a repentance and a spiritual 'awakening' and the desire to conform to the 'likeness' of Jesus. It is a life changing decision which in fact, rarely 'fits in' at all, anywhere.

Tom, this is not meant to dispute what you have said, it is merely my clarification for those who have do not claim to be Christian.

But how about all the Christians (and even some Jews) who are converting to Islam? Islam is growing very fast in the USA and only some is from immigration. Much is from conversion.