What Takes More Faith????

[green 6]

He did say be all things to all people, but that was to be a light to them. To be able to meet them where they are, not as "self righteous religous people" such as were the Pharesses. You are taking that scripture way out of context.

Jesus also didn't go seeking out the Pharisees to have religious debates. He just answered them or was showing them their "ignorance".

Serious discussion about the gospel is best kept with other believers.

If you bring these type of questions to people that don't even have the basics down, it is just a bad testimony because they don't understand where you are coming from or what your true motives are.

We are not to toss pearls...

We are to use our "walk" and if people see us as arguementative it gives a bad name to what Christ was trying to teach, love.

I see no love in this thread from the believer which is supposed to be you.

This is not the place for this. I think you are doing a diservice to our call. I think you have good intentions, but then you know what they say about good intentions.

I don't want to get drawn into this thread of going back and forth.

The question you have to ask yourself, is "am I helping or hindering".

I don't see any helping, just hindering.

I don't mean to attack you in any way, as I said, I think your intentions are pure, but I seriously do not think Jesus went around provoking people by being argumentative to argumentative people.

You give good post, BabyG, and thank you for the above quoted one and your earlier post, too!

Cusano, you know that a number of us have repeatedly said that your tone is less than cool. Hectoring is never an effective way to win folks over. As you know by now, I am an atheist. Nevertheless, there are a great many Christians who post on this site whom I both admire and kinda envy for their sweetness and their generosity of heart and spirit. These are all people who do not hide their belief and they are all interested with interacting in a positive manner with others who may have divergent views and who also post on this site. This, as you know, has not been the case with you.

From what I understand of Jesus's activities, He went around preaching and performing miracles. Those who chose to listen and follow did so. His contre-temps with the money changers in the temple was related to a specific issue, that of introducing Mammon into God's house. Citing this incident as a reason to hector and rail against those of us whom you view as being infidels does not follow.

Might I suggest the following approach? You examine what it is about your belief that brings you joy and certainty and then you explain this to us and you tell us that you hope that we will be open to listening to you. You then follow this up with a prayer to your God that he will assist you by enabling us to understand your message. I am aware that this may sound impertinent coming from an atheist but these are my thoughts on this matter.

[green 6]

I agree that we are discussing beliefs held very dear to our makeup.

What happens when a student is trying to become a scientist and the result of his experiment comes out opposite of what his belief structure says should have occurred? Does he modify his belief structure or ignore the data? Or does he modify the experiment until it comes out in agreement with his belief structure?

My step-father wanted to belief that he could cure diabetes by meditation. He believed he could mentally send antibodies to the damaged area(?) and cure any disease.

He would call me up continually and ask me to go to the drugstore for him because he had run out of test strips for his blood sugar meter. He used about 150 strips a week instead of the 3 per day, 21 strips each week.

I finally figured out what he was doing when I compared his meter's memory and his spreadsheet's sugar count history log. He was putting his blood on strip after strip, until he could get an artificially low (and false) reading.

It is hard to give up one's beliefs, even when science stares you in the face.

This business of beliefs is a difficult one. The government has just snatched three of the four surviving sextuplets born to a Jehovah's Witness family in British Columbia, Canada. They were born prematurely and the parents are adhering to their faith's belief that blood transfusions are just plain wrong.

[Sunta 5]

Serious discussion about the faith is not taken kindly here.

Ok, let us have a serious discussion on faith. I have asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. So maybe you can answer me Ron. Why do you believe in Jesus and not in, say... Horus? Why in Jesus and not in any of the other Greek or Roman Gods? Why in Jesus and not in Allah?

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

I submit to you that the bible is a book, a story, a fable. Written over thousands of years and based almost exclusively on a compilation of previous myths and stories. What makes the bible different from any other religious text that exists besides the fact that someone at some point told you that the bible is the "right" book?

Jesus did not come down to earth. He did not raise people from the dead. People just can't do that. He didn't do it, Horus didn't do it, and Dionysus didn't do it, because they are all fictional characters (with extreme similarities). Similarly, Jesus did not himself rise from the dead, and neither did Horus or Dionysus (though they are all life-death-rebirth deities).

Jesus did not walk on Water, and neither did Horus (though it was said that he did!) because they are fictional characters.

The similarities between the mythological character of Jesus and the mythological characters of Horus and Dionysus are astounding. This alone casts more than reasonable doubt on Jesus.

I submit to you that belief in Jesus as a real, living figure as described in the bible makes as much logical sense as believing in Mithra, Tammuz, or Krishna as a real figure. Perhaps a man named Jesus did live at some point, and did make people believe that he performed miracles, but if he did live, he was no more the son of God than David Blain is when he walks on Water.< /p>

The reason why people believe it is because they have been told to believe it, just as people who believed in these other Gods had been told to believe in them.

It is nice, and it is convenient, to have a "way out" when one feels life's burdens are too difficult to bear. It is nice and convenient to soften to fear of mortality with a belief in heaven. It is wonderful to reliquish personal responsibility for "sin" by believing that there was someone else who already took responsibility for those sins, and that everything is forgiven if you believe in that person. I can understand the joyful exuberation one must feel when they are "saved", because it completely lifts them up from the reality of life, removes the fear of death, and makes them feel great about themselves.

Unfortunately, it is magical thinking. It would be wonderful if it were true, but it is not true. There was no Jesus as described in the bible, except in fiction. Fiction that was compiled, changed, and manipulated for political gain over thousands of years.

When people who share my views ask for proof, we get the same old word back as an answer "faith". Well, honestly, that just does not make any sense. It is no different from a child's faith in Santa Clause I'm sorry to say.

I'm tired of pandering to Christians when they push their beliefs on me. They are the ones who don't want the serious discussion about faith, because truly serious discussion and thought and logic all point extremely quickly to the fact that it's all just not true. That's why the discussion always gets shuts down with a one-word answer of "faith".

If you really think about it, if you really use your head, you will see that the things Jesus did in the bible are impossible. They can't happen. They didn't happen. If you compare, side by side, the story of Jesus and the stories of Gods that came before him, you will see, with astounding clarity, amazing similarities. If you reach down in your heart, I think you'll find that somewhere inside there must be a part of you that knows that people can not perform tasks such as walking on water or raising folks from the dead. It is a great and exciting story, but unfortunately it is just a story.

[Ron Cusano 0]

If I thought for a second that you were serious and that it would not be the source of more mocking I would give you a detailed, intelligent answer to every one of your inquires. I won't waste my time, especially since I already answered all of them previously on another thread, and saw the response from other with your beliefs.

I will tell you this. I do not and never did accept anything on blind faith. It is based upon what I consider irrrefutable evidences. The truth or myth on Christian belief rests on weather the Bible is the Word of God or just a book of fables, as you call it. After serious, in-depth study, questioning, examining, and even serious doubt, I came to an intellectual belief of it's accuracy and authtencity. To provide all of the evidence that I found and considered would take considerable more time and space than is available here, and doing it in this enviroment is certainly not going to prove profitable.

You already have your mind made-up and are not open to considering anything from an unbiased opinion. I am not going to allow my faith and my God to be dragged through the mud and mocked by people with your preconceived ideas and closedmindedness any more.

You rage that the Bible can't happen, Jesus can't happen, the miracles can't happen, eternity can't happen, and on, and on! Hey, that is your right! You can believe or not believe anything you want, and you have a right to express it. Do I believe that you are 100% wrong and condemning yourself for eternity? I do, and I also have a right to think and say that too!

One final thought! If I die and it turned out that your were right, that death is the end of it all and there is no eternity, then I have lost nothing. It would mean that I spent my life living a type of moral, peaceful existance that I may not have if I had not believed.

On the other side of that coin, if my beliefs are correct, and they are, when you close your eyes for the last time and enter eternity, all will be lost, and it will be too late to do anything about it. And that too is your choice!!

Serious discussion about the faith is not taken kindly here.

Ok, let us have a serious discussion on faith. I have asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. So maybe you can answer me Ron. Why do you believe in Jesus and not in, say... Horus? Why in Jesus and not in any of the other Greek or Roman Gods? Why in Jesus and not in Allah?

Do you realize that had you been born in a different place, you would believe in a different God?

I submit to you that the bible is a book, a story, a fable. Written over thousands of years and based almost exclusively on a compilation of previous myths and stories. What makes the bible different from any other religious text that exists besides the fact that someone at some point told you that the bible is the "right" book?

Jesus did not come down to earth. He did not raise people from the dead. People just can't do that. He didn't do it, Horus didn't do it, and Dionysus didn't do it, because they are all fictional characters (with extreme similarities). Similarly, Jesus did not himself rise from the dead, and neither did Horus or Dionysus (though they are all life-death-rebirth deities).

Jesus did not walk on Water, and neither did Horus (though it was said that he did!) because they are fictional characters.

The similarities between the mythological character of Jesus and the mythological characters of Horus and Dionysus are astounding. This alone casts more than reasonable doubt on Jesus.

I submit to you that belief in Jesus as a real, living figure as described in the bible makes as much logical sense as believing in Mithra, Tammuz, or Krishna as a real figure. Perhaps a man named Jesus did live at some point, and did make people believe that he performed miracles, but if he did live, he was no more the son of God than David Blain is when he walks on Water.< /p>

The reason why people believe it is because they have been told to believe it, just as people who believed in these other Gods had been told to believe in them.

It is nice, and it is convenient, to have a "way out" when one feels life's burdens are too difficult to bear. It is nice and convenient to soften to fear of mortality with a belief in heaven. It is wonderful to reliquish personal responsibility for "sin" by believing that there was someone else who already took responsibility for those sins, and that everything is forgiven if you believe in that person. I can understand the joyful exuberation one must feel when they are "saved", because it completely lifts them up from the reality of life, removes the fear of death, and makes them feel great about themselves.

Unfortunately, it is magical thinking. It would be wonderful if it were true, but it is not true. There was no Jesus as described in the bible, except in fiction. Fiction that was compiled, changed, and manipulated for political gain over thousands of years.

When people who share my views ask for proof, we get the same old word back as an answer "faith". Well, honestly, that just does not make any sense. It is no different from a child's faith in Santa Clause I'm sorry to say.

I'm tired of pandering to Christians when they push their beliefs on me. They are the ones who don't want the serious discussion about faith, because truly serious discussion and thought and logic all point extremely quickly to the fact that it's all just not true. That's why the discussion always gets shuts down with a one-word answer of "faith".

If you really think about it, if you really use your head, you will see that the things Jesus did in the bible are impossible. They can't happen. They didn't happen. If you compare, side by side, the story of Jesus and the stories of Gods that came before him, you will see, with astounding clarity, amazing similarities. If you reach down in your heart, I think you'll find that somewhere inside there must be a part of you that knows that people can not perform tasks such as walking on water or raising folks from the dead. It is a great and exciting story, but unfortunately it is just a story.

[Sunta 5]

If I thought for a second that you were serious and that it would not be the source of more mocking I would give you a detailed, intelligent answer to every one of your inquires.

I am 100% serious. What gave you the impression I'm not being serious? I seriously believe every word I have set forth. I have not mocked, but have seriously questioned. Why are serious, well-thought out questions called "mockery"? I don't really understand that.

It is so convenient for people to say "I've researched it and I know it's accurate". Well, then why not put forth the evidence?

No one ever speaks to the stories of previous Gods who did the exact same things as Jesus did. No one ever answers. All they say is "well, it all comes down to faith."

This leads me to believe that in fact, there is no "research" into earlier religions, because no one has an answer as to why earlier religions had very similar (in some cases identical) Gods and stories as Jesus.

What is the explanation about this?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Here is the short version . . .

The Bible's Anatomy . . . It is made up of 66 seperate books or writings, by about 40 different authors over a period of about 3,500 years. Most of the writers had never met or had anything in common with one another. Yet, all of these 66 books put together forms an ongoing, intelligent theme and storyline that could only be seen if there were a single author. For the Bible to be a hoax, 40 writers over 3,500 years would have had to be in collusion with one another and have a common reason to deceive the world. In addition, many of them would have had to be agreeable to sacrificing their own lives for the cause, inclusing Jesus and the Apostles.

Compared to other so-called sacred religious writing, all were written by a single person, during a single lifetime, pointing to themselves as objects of worship or the sole bearer of a spiritual truth. All highly suspect and all to be discounted from my perspective.

Archology . . . Archeologists findings of manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls for instance, gave strong evidence that the manuscripts that wewre handed down on thousands of years were essentially unchanged and unaltered. Archeologists have uncovered hundreds of cities and historical places, previously unknown to man, except through the Bible. Another strong indication of it's truth and accuracy.

Bible Prophecy . . . There is documented proof of the fulfillment and accuracy of hundreds of Bible prophecys, some within our own lifetime. The mathamatical odds are well beyond the realm of chance and into the realm of certainty.

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Bible prophecies Himself while establishing His messianic credentials. Most of there were completely beyond his control and impossible to fabricate. For instance, He had no control over where He would be born, His blood line, the manner of His death, that His parents would travel to Egypt to escape persecution, that the solders would cast lots for His garments, etc., etc.

Here are some statistics of Him, or any man at a given point of time, fulfilling only 8 of these . . .

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, 'we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.

"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 1079. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

If I thought for a second that you were serious and that it would not be the source of more mocking I would give you a detailed, intelligent answer to every one of your inquires.

I am 100% serious. What gave you the impression I'm not being serious? I seriously believe every word I have set forth. I have not mocked, but have seriously questioned. Why are serious, well-thought out questions called "mockery"? I don't really understand that.

It is so convenient for people to say "I've researched it and I know it's accurate". Well, then why not put forth the evidence?

No one ever speaks to the stories of previous Gods who did the exact same things as Jesus did. No one ever answers. All they say is "well, it all comes down to faith."

This leads me to believe that in fact, there is no "research" into earlier religions, because no one has an answer as to why earlier religions had very similar (in some cases identical) Gods and stories as Jesus.

What is the explanation about this?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

If I thought for a second that you were serious and that it would not be the source of more mocking I would give you a detailed, intelligent answer to every one of your inquires.

You can not give her a detailed intelligent answer.

You can give her an answer based on your opinion that the Bible was divined by the word of God.

But anything past "the Bible is true because God inspired the Bible, and I know that God inspired the Bible because, the Bible says that God inspired it and the Bible is true.

That is not an intelligent argument. It is an argument based on your impossible to prove faith.

You have a right to your faith, but you can not prove it as fact and as I have said at least a dozen times before, whether I agree that Jesus is God or 2,000,000,000 agree, there is no intelligent way to prove it, just belief and faith.

If it could be proved, then we would not need faith. In fact, if it could be proved, we could not have faith, because having faith has to do with things that can not be proved, not with things that can be proved.

[Ron Cusano 0]

If you took the time to read my reply before shooting you mouth off with unfounded accusations, you might actually see that I did!

You can not give her a detailed intelligent answer.

You can give her an answer based on your opinion that the Bible was divined by the word of God.

But anything past "the Bible is true because God inspired the Bible, and I know that God inspired the Bible because, the Bible says that God inspired it and the Bible is true.

That is not an intelligent argument. It is an argument based on your impossible to prove faith.

You have a right to your faith, but you can not prove it as fact and as I have said at least a dozen times before, whether I agree that Jesus is God or 2,000,000,000 agree, there is no intelligent way to prove it, just belief and faith.

If it could be proved, then we would not need faith. In fact, if it could be proved, we could not have faith, because having faith has to do with things that can not be proved, not with things that can be proved.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Here is the short version . . .

The Bible's Anatomy . . . It is made up of 66 seperate books or writings, by about 40 different authors over a period of about 3,500 years. Most of the writers had never met or had anything in common with one another. Yet, all of these 66 books put together forms an ongoing, intelligent theme and storyline that could only be seen if there were a single author. For the Bible to be a hoax, 40 writers over 3,500 years would have had to be in collusion with one another and have a common reason to deceive the world. In addition, many of them would have had to be agreeable to sacrificing their own lives for the cause, inclusing Jesus and the Apostles.

Compared to other so-called sacred religious writing, all were written by a single person, during a single lifetime, pointing to themselves as objects of worship or the sole bearer of a spiritual truth. All highly suspect and all to be discounted from my perspective.

And 007 has been played by half a dozen actors, but that does not make James Bond real.

Archology . . . Archeologists findings of manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls for instance, gave strong evidence that the manuscripts that wewre handed down on thousands of years were essentially unchanged and unaltered. Archeologists have uncovered hundreds of cities and historical places, previously unknown to man, except through the Bible. Another strong indication of it's truth and accuracy.

Bible Prophecy . . . There is documented proof of the fulfillment and accuracy of hundreds of Bible prophecys, some within our own lifetime. The mathamatical odds are well beyond the realm of chance and into the realm of certainty.

Jesus fulfilled hundreds of Bible prophecies Himself while establishing His messianic credentials. Most of there were completely beyond his control and impossible to fabricate. For instance, He had no control over where He would be born, His blood line, the manner of His death, that His parents would travel to Egypt to escape persecution, that the solders would cast lots for His garments, etc., etc.

Here are some statistics of Him, or any man at a given point of time, fulfilling only 8 of these . . .

This is only proof that the people who wrote the later writings that went into the Bible were familiar with the older tales, either by word of mouth or custom and/or they only let newer writing which agreed with older writings in during canonization

The Qur'an was also written over hundreds of years and except for the Qur'an's opposition to Jesus being either a deity or son of a deity, it is almost the same set of stories.

Prophecies take so much interpretation to be thought of as actually being fulfilled. Nostradamus is also supposed to have had hundreds of prophecies fulfilled, but I have never seen one to be actually accurate.

[Sunta 5]

No one has addressed my concern about the many other gods who were written about thousands of years before Jesus, who did and said things identical to Jesus.

Why is it that no one will answer that concern?

I am not looking for the answer: "people made it up to discredit Christianity", because I have read translations of Egyptian hieroglyphics that are identical to stories depicted in the bible.

So, can someone please explain why these stories had been previously written?

[Ron Cusano 0]

I have made a prayerful decision to leave this thread, which I know will not cause anyone here to shed any tears. I know some of you will gloat, but rest assured, you have not driven me away. God has made it crystal clear that no good can come from me remaining.

I am leaving with a heavy heart and a lot of sadness! I have never encountered such darkness, blindness and hardness of heart in 30+ years of ministry. It is interesting that the Bible speaks of exactly these things happening in the Last Days before the Lords return.

The Scriptures speak about what happens when men reject and push the knowledge of God from their minds. It say's that God gives them over to a "reprobate mind", not being able to tell the difference between good and evil, with homosexuality being one of it's hallmarks. I have seen many reprobate minds here, and it is very troubling.

I have wasted too much time here and lost my cool when God, the Lord Jesus, the Bible and the Faith have been dragged through the mud and made a mockery by those with dark hearts That needs to stop so that I can get back to profitable ministry. My desire is that all of you would come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus the Messiah!

If there are any here that have sincere questions about the Bible and what it has to say about eternal life, sin and your relationship to God, please feel free to contact me by eMail. It would be most welcomed!

Allow me to leave you with these words of scripture . . .

John: 3: 17-18 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believeth in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

No one has addressed my concern about the many other gods who were written about thousands of years before Jesus, who did and said things identical to Jesus.

Why is it that no one will answer that concern?

I am not looking for the answer: "people made it up to discredit Christianity", because I have read translations of Egyptian hieroglyphics that are identical to stories depicted in the bible.

So, can someone please explain why these stories had been previously written?

There are many possible explanations.

I will give you two that are totally divergent and maybe someone else will attempt to cover the middle ground.

#1: They are all true, and the one and only God, wanting to test the worth of each individual society, told many differing groups, basically the same stories. Only the names were changed to protect the conspiracy.

#2. They are all false, and the one and only God never existed, nor did more that one God or even one God.

My Brain is tired.:faint:

[Sunta 5]

I have made a prayerful decision to leave this thread

As soon as the big questions arise, the Christians run and hide. I've never had an answer yet. It's awfully convenient to run away and just say "you're evil!" instead of facing the tough questions head-on and providing an intelligent and logical answer.

I guess I'll keep waiting and wondering why Jesus is a carbon copy of previous, much older gods...

[Wheetsin 714]

Sunta, the most common explanation I've heard for this, which is not going to be news to you, is that it was a matter of a self-fulfilling prophecy (so to speak). Unless you want to get into Chariots of the Gods kind of theory.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have made a prayerful decision to leave this thread

As soon as the big questions arise, the Christians run and hide. I've never had an answer yet. It's awfully convenient to run away and just say "you're evil!" instead of facing the tough questions head-on and providing an intelligent and logical answer.

I guess I'll keep waiting and wondering why Jesus is a carbon copy of previous, much older gods...

Wasn't my answer good enough.:help: