ATTN: Vets and Baby Boomers

[Devana 0]

Bubble: I feel similarly about the illegals in this country. I have no problem with people coming here legally. I have a problem with them sneaking across the border and living here illegally. Maybe what we should do is sneak into Canada and live there and take advantage of their health care system. Then it would all balance out. Kidding of course.

I know a number of US retirees who have found themselves Canadian spouses and moved here with the admitted intention of receiving affordable health care as they age. Even if the marriage ends they stay. Most of the ones I know have their families in Washington state so it's fairly easy to go back and visit them.

[Wheetsin 714]

If BOTH parents are not legal citizens, ship them back.

I'm way behind on this thread, but had a curiosity around this. Remember that there are degrees of legal residency between "illegal alien" and "citizen". I am a citizen, my husband is not. He is an unconditional resident alien. He has a SS#, driver's license, and pays more in taxes than most Americans do. And cannot vote.

Point being - he's a legal worker, who is not a legal citizen. What would you think about a Mexican in the same situation, because of a visa program we would offer? No employer is going to want to sponsor Mexican residents on a work visa because the visas arent' cheap, it's a lot of paperwork/work for the employer, etc. But how would you feel about a new visa system - one that would allow people into the country to work, legally, without being citizens, and without significant cost? You could set criteria - e.g. legal US working age, whatever about criminal history, etc. Oh, and ideally it would be a quick deal, say obtainable within a week. Not that our INS system could ever get there. But just curious what you (general popluation) would think about that arrangement.

I think it was Mencia who said something like "Yeah, let's build a big wall to keep all the Mexicans out. The only problem is - then who do you get to build the wall?"

[anonemouse 1]

I remember reading an article about the pear orchards or something along those lines that were already suffering from ICE cracking down on illegal labor. The fruit was basically rotting on the trees because there wasn't anyone to pick it. American companies can't afford to hire American laborers. And even if they could, many Americans wouldn't be willing to do the work. Much of our economy is running on illegal labor or migrant workers.

[BJean 16]

The way I see it, the people in the U.S. employ illegals to do work that American citizens won't do for the pay that the illegals will accept. That (supposedly) keeps the cost of food and goods lower here. Americans go on to do other work. The illegals probably take a lot of the money back to their countries.

If it was all neat and tidied up with proper regulations in place, things would undoubtedly change for business because illegals would be governed by rules and regulations. The cost of that would have an impact, documenting workers would cost and possibly change the flow of people, and I'd bet that the workers would wind up needing more money for the same jobs if they were full time residents of the U.S. The companies may or may not be willing to pay more money and the cost of material goods and food could be affected.

Anybody follow my logic? The situation feeds on itself. Right now it is in the country's best interest for it to continue this way as far as business is concerned. However Americans are feeling angry that they are having to pay for certain health and educational benefits for the children of the illegals, among other things. There is the language problem that annoys many Americans as well.

When there were thousands of illegals, the differences and the benefits we paid weren't as significant and didn't have the impact that millions of illegals now have on our culture. And it isn't that the immigrants can't assimilate, it is that because they are not citizens and there is no incentive for them to assimilate and there are no programs provided to help them assimilate into our society.

It is a big problem. It isn't going to be resolved with a simple fix. There are just too many of them for us to get off high center and float this problem on down the river the way other immigration problems have been solved in the past.

[BJean 16]

Devana: I had no idea that Americans were actually going to Canada for the medical benefits. And they must need them bad in order for them to marry someone just to get them. It seems odd to hear it, but we just found out what medical insurance is going to cost us when my DH retires. Talk about your sticker shock.

Maybe I should start learning your national anthem. **sly grin**

[BJean 16]

Bubble: Yeah, but how do you REALLY feel? Just kidding. I'm not making light of something so serious. I just feel bad that there's no really good answer to this horrendous problem

I've lived in Florida and spent some time in Miami and believe me, they've suffered some of the same problems that you listed, but their illegals come from a different country than the one you're talking about.

I do not believe that I am paying less for an orange. I'm not paying less for my swimming pool or the labor when I built my house. I'm NOT the one who is financially benefitting from illegals working the jobs for less money. Their employers never have and will never pass the savings on to us. I'm not fooled about that. In fact, I'm not fooled by the situation at all.

I just don't think that there is a simple answer. I don't buy the plan that Bush has suggested. I know who that benefits! But I don't see how we're going to get our laws enforced. Because to me, THAT is the problem!!

Do you really think there is a viable plan for deporting them? Do you think that we can stop them from crossing over? How exactly can we pull that off?

[BJean 16]

Bubble: I have heard about the quality of medical care in Mexico. I have seen the websites and photos. I've heard many bandsters stories about their experiences there. I know lots of people go there to buy meds that they can't afford in the U.S. It is obscene. Some people still believe that the U.S. has the best health care in the world. We USED to have good medical care.

Nowadays you better get real smart about any illness you have or any medical procedure you need. You have to be completely proactive about every aspect of your health care and medicines. It is a very scary world out there. And don't get me started on what my SIL's grandfather went through when he got knee replacement surgery last summer. They wound up burying him... and with only one leg. You can fill in the blanks, I'm sure.

They killed my dad with aortic aneurism surgery that they insisted upon. He'd had that aneurism for 5 years. He'd been through heart bypass and Crohn's disease surgery and was 83 years old. He darned sure didn't need aortic aneurism surgery! After that surgery, he lived - on life support - for over a month. Until his insurance ran out. Then they were willing to pull the plug. Can you imagine the gut wrenching experiences we went through during all that? I would have much rather he dropped dead in the Winn-Dixie from an aneurism.

So I know what you're saying. It all seems so futile because we live in a capitalistic society. Money provides power. Money rules all. They have the power and what do we have? Our vote? When it came to the presidential elections, for many of us our vote didn't count. So when you get down to it, we don't even have our vote.

Do you really think there are answers and remedies?

[BJean 16]

And the rich keep getting richer and poor keep getting poorer.

I can't see the people who are benefitting from illegal workers actually helping to enforce the laws and denying work to ready hands who are willing to work for the low wages. Perhaps if, like you said, the punishment for the crime of hiring them were to be actual jail time, there would be some cooperation. But having the fox guard the hen house, as the old saying goes, just doesn't make much sense.

I just can't imagine the task force it would take to enforce the laws as they stand. You're talking about millions and millions of workers every day. Millions of business owners.

I agree that it needs to be done and that it should be done, but I just don't see it happening.

Btw, I've also lived in Arizona. Sierra Vista. Not a real good route there for crossing over. And now I live in Texas, and my son and his family live in California, so I've had some exposure to the problem but I had no idea that it was as bad as you've told us about where you live. You're probably right, when it reaches middle America more people will be up in arms. But if the problem is impossible now, it will only be worse then. Sure feels hopeless, doesn't it?

I am a Democrat and proud of it, by the way. And I don't tell people often because it's none of their business. But I completely agree that young people have no clue about the parties and what they stand for. They think it is politically correct to say that they "vote for the man." I keep explaining that with the man you're getting a political platform and you better be darned sure you know what the heck is on their agenda. But they think I'm just a no-nothing dyed in the wool hard party line person. If people don't have a clue after having put up with this administration, they must be brain dead.

[Carlene 12]

In many ways, I'm more concerned with the illegal drugs coming out of Mexico than undocumented workers, although I'd like to see something done about both.

It is a fact that illegal aliens cost us billions in social services, education, and medical care every year. Most of that is by way of so-called "anchor babies" - children born in the USA to non-citizens. The only way to plug that hole is to change the Constitution.

It is also a fact that many of the people who cross the border illegally - risking not only their life-savings, but their very lives, as well - are desperately trying to improve their families' way of life. Not all, certainly, and that has created a huge wave of anti-Mexican sentiment in Texas and other border states.

Mexico is the 5th richest oil nation in the world and certainly has the resources to provide as well, or better, for its citizens than the USA does. The problem is that there is incredible corruption in Mexico's state-owned oil industry, coupled with the fact that the government siphons off much of the profits for other services, leaving little to fund better technology, upgrade equipment, etc. (Foreigners, by the way, are prohibited by law from investing in Mexico's oil production.)

Mexico's government has not been much help in working toward a solution to the border problem - whether you're talking about drugs or illegal immigrants.

[green 6]

I know I'm not a boomer...or vet...but I just wanted to say that National Health Care, as in the UK is NOT all it's cracked up to be. My husband is from the UK and his family still lives there. No one wants to be a nurse because it pays diddly (nurses here think they have it bad pay wise, but it's nothing compared to the UK). So care in the hospital is seriously lacking and that's IF you can get into the hospital when needed. If you need surgery...good luck! Unless you are ready to draw your last breath, you are not a priority. Only the privatized hospital provide good care and most can't afford it because a tiny little town house costs upwards of $200k...my in-laws sold their modest 3br town home, in a modest suburb, for $400k! DH and I thought of starting our lives together there in the UK, and realized we wouldn't be able to maintain our standard of living there because the job that paid him $20 an hour (9 years ago) would have only paid him $12 an hour there. And if something is $15 here...it's 15 pounds there...about $23! We don't have it as bad here as we'd like to think. We've just overindulged ourselves so much since the 50's that somethings gotta give! National health care isn't the answer imho.

I have visited the UK. I have relatives who live there. It is very different from Canada. Everything but everything is horrifically expensive there, far more expensive than on the continent. Even a cup of tea in a cafe. I did have a minor medical emergency - I cut one of my corneas - while I was there and it cost me zip.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

My feelings about this issue have nothing to do with BuSh. I have held the same basic beliefs since before the first Bush, (HW) and probably before Reagan or Carter.

I think that the crime wave will diminish when people are allowed to come out of hiding. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

When the (legal) Puerto Ricans emigrated en mass to Brooklyn and the Bronx (boroughs of NYC) in the early 60's, we had many of the same problems. Now Puerto Ricans have moved up the economic ladder and are complaining about the Dominicans who are starting to move up and complaining about the Mexicans and Guatemalans

I really do not know if my ancestors came here legally or not, but Italians were known to be “With Out Papers” often enough to be get the nickname WOP's. My grandfather who was born in Italy in 1901, joined the US army in WW1 in order to get his citizenship. They didn't worry about having citizenship or not with a World War going on and running out of American White men. Hell, they even had to take Blacks eventually and (God forbid) give them guns.

The Irish, when they came over en masse also lived in crime ridden slums. In modern Brooklyn, since the Soviet Union broke up, there has been a huge influx of Russian Jews moving into Brighten Beach (near Coney Island) and the crime rate has sky-rocketed in that area as the Russian Mafia has proven to make the Italian Mafia look mellow.

And getting back to my people; the Italians also lived in ghettos and had high crime rates. When people cluster together for protection from the established communities, crime and slums are a byproduct. And they brought the Mafia with them.

You can find the same debates as we are having here at LBT and the same headlines plastered in the papers that were so prevalent last year when immigration was the topic de jour, if you go to the library and get the NY Times micro-films out. Except it will be in the last two centuries and it will be about the Irish, the Polish and the Italians. Everybody who came here and didn't speak English, has been persecuted And the Blacks and "Native Americans" have also fallen into that same "not as good as we are" syndrome. The English, who settled this country were among the most barbaric people who ever ruled the world. Their methods of annihilating the "Native Americans" were barbaric as were their methods of torture and execution. All people deserve a chance at feeding their families, and as far as changing the constitution to throw out innocent babies born here to "illegal" people, that smacks of calling babies "bastards" because their parents did not get married. Babies should never be blamed for the mistakes of their parents.

Every group that comes here eventually melts into the pot of America, but too many of the people who's ancestors have come here don't want the same opportunities extended to the latest crop of foreigners. It is human nature. It is not the best component of human nature. Maybe the USA shouldn't have stolen so much land from the Spanish speaking people who settled it, then we would not have to complain when the Mexicans cross into Arizona and California.

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn . . .

If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight . . .

If a child lives with fear, he learns to be apprehensive . . .

If a child lives with pity, he learns to feel sorry for himself . . .

If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy . . .

If a child lives with jealousy, he learns to feel guilt . . .

BUT

If a child lives with tolerance, he learns to be patient . . .

If a child lives with encouragement, he learns to be confident . . .

If a child lives with , he learns to be appreciative . . .

If a child lives with acceptance, he learns to love . . .

If a child lives with honesty, he learns what truth is . . .

If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice . . .

If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith in himself and those about him . . .

If a child lives with friendliness, he learns the world is a nice place in which to live . . .

We never stop being children (at heart), so the same can be said for the Undocumented Immigrants who are just as much “Children of God” as we are (in you are Christian) or just as human (with human rights) as we (whether you are religious or not).

[Carlene 12]

All people deserve a chance at feeding their families, and as far as changing the constitution to throw out innocent babies born here to "illegal" people, that smacks of calling babies "bastards" because their parents did not get married. Babies should never be blamed for the mistakes of their parents.

TOM....I was not advocating a constitutional amendment; I just pointed out that there was no other way to stop undocumented immigrants from accessing US entitlement programs on behalf of their American-born children.

The "anchor baby" mentality HAS become a machine for collecting benefits, however. Giving people an incentive to break the law is just adding fuel to the fire.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

TOM....I was not advocating a constitutional amendment; I just pointed out that there was no other way to stop undocumented immigrants from accessing US entitlement programs on behalf of their American-born children.

The "anchor baby" mentality HAS become a machine for collecting benefits, however. Giving people an incentive to break the law is just adding fuel to the fire.

I was not directing my post at anyone, but at the concept itself.

I know there are many problems with the immigration situation, but fine tuning is the answer, not a meat cleaver.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

As long as you are quoting the same things as Bush, you are falling for his agenda. It was YOU that wrote 12,000,000 illegals and that figure is years and years old. You are repeating Bush word for word in several instances.

Or he is repeating me.:confused:

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Let them move into YOUR home, YOU pay for them. Leave me out of it.

We don't get to chose as indiviuals what we pay for. It is a collective society and laws are not always what is right. Slavery was once the law, but it was changed. This concept of borders may be very sacred to some, but to me, humanity comes before borders.