ATTN: Vets and Baby Boomers

[Carlene 12]

If the Democrats can pass the legislation to force the Medicare Department to negotiate drug prices in the Senate, and IF WE CAN PUT PRESSURE ON BUSH not to veto the bill, it will save the country TRILLION$.

And if they can't, our grandchildren and THEIR grandchildren are screwed. Bush has mortgaged the future of America and sooner or later, we are going to find that we can't make the house payment!

[BJean 16]

The only way you're going to be able to appeal to G.W. to favor us over the drug companies, is if we come up with a pot of cash bigger than theirs. Not very darned likely.

It's like saying soldiers can keep him from waging war. We're all pawns in the very grand game of big corporate profit.

[BJean 16]

Not quite as stupid and greedy as Bush? You're being very kind. I would have added dishonest and taken out the quite.

[Devana 0]

I know I'm not a boomer...or vet...but I just wanted to say that National Health Care, as in the UK is NOT all it's cracked up to be. My husband is from the UK and his family still lives there. No one wants to be a nurse because it pays diddly (nurses here think they have it bad pay wise, but it's nothing compared to the UK). So care in the hospital is seriously lacking and that's IF you can get into the hospital when needed. If you need surgery...good luck! Unless you are ready to draw your last breath, you are not a priority. Only the privatized hospital provide good care and most can't afford it because a tiny little town house costs upwards of $200k...my in-laws sold their modest 3br town home, in a modest suburb, for $400k! DH and I thought of starting our lives together there in the UK, and realized we wouldn't be able to maintain our standard of living there because the job that paid him $20 an hour (9 years ago) would have only paid him $12 an hour there. And if something is $15 here...it's 15 pounds there...about $23! We don't have it as bad here as we'd like to think. We've just overindulged ourselves so much since the 50's that somethings gotta give! National health care isn't the answer imho.

When I was in school in the UK we studied the differences in the health care systems of the UK, the US and Canada. One of the problems with the UK system is that it's two tiered. The private sector is really siphoning off the benefits of the NHS.

In my province of BC in Canada there are repeated attempts to privatize health care to some degree and it's usually met with protest by people who do not stand to benefit financially from privatization. It's recognized that it would erode universal health care.

The system isn't perfect. There are sometimes waits for things like hip and knee surgeries and in some of the faster growing urban centres the hospitals are bursting at the seams.

However, for example, if a person needs cancer treatment or something like that, they have access to the best treatment available, and quickly, regardless of their income.

Many people do have private extended insurance and this usually covers dental, eyeglasses, orthotics, massage, naturopathic and chiropractic treatments etc.

My son had a health crisis just over 4 years ago and it has since been an ongoing thing. To date he has used up well over a million dollars worth of health care and it has cost us our $109.00 a month medical services fee.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

We have a war to support and 30-40 MILLION illegals to care for, we don't have money to take care of our own.

Maybe if we did something to make the 12 million Illegal Immigrants into tax paying, SS paying, FICA paying open members of our society and working class, that would be a net plus for the system.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There is a hidden cost to to the lack of Universal Health care in the USA, and that cost is the draining of jobs to other countries.

GM and Ford have said that the #1 cost item in a car produced by them is the cost of Health Care Insurance for the workers. GM and Ford, and many other long established companies can not compete with companies from countries with universal health care or no health care at all.

Either the USA gets a universal health care system or the jobs will continue to leave until only the rich have health care.

GM & Ford, and many other companies have dumped health care and pensions from their benefits package. Insuring everyone doesn't have to be as expensive as most people think. Most people do not know it, but they are already paying for the uninsured working class.

When a person without health insurance gets sick, they go to and are treated at an Hospital Emergency Room. ER's cost about 10 times as much as a regular visit. The uninsured patient does not pay the ER bill and the hospital takes it out of their revenue, but adds it to the cost that the other patients pay. In the long run, it would cost less to have the uninsured people treated in a non-ER setting. Massachusetts and California are both working on bills to work out the details of a state-wide universal health care system. I believe Massachusetts is already implementing theirs.

[BJean 16]

We argue and the health insurance companies just keep getting richer. My brother planned to retire a year ago. He works for the school system in his town. He found out what their health insurance was going to cost them once he retired and found out that he either pays an enormous amount per month or he has none. He can't pay the per month amount of money for the health insurance he needs - he has some pre-existing conditions and he can't continue to work although he's not bad enough to claim disability - so he's screwed. What a way to end a really successful career. In the pits of health care hell.

[BJean 16]

Bubble: I feel similarly about the illegals in this country. I have no problem with people coming here legally. I have a problem with them sneaking across the border and living here illegally. Maybe what we should do is sneak into Canada and live there and take advantage of their health care system. Then it would all balance out. Kidding of course.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

T.O.M. ...

Oh, here we disagree. First of all the 12,000,000 figure is many years old. Mexico estimates that 1/3 of their population (of 100,000,000) are here today illegally.

Send all illegals back to where they came from and if they want to follow our laws and come here legally, cool.

Then put the law breaking, under-the-table-wage-paying employers in prison at hard labor for hiring illegals and the problem is solved.

It is not that easy. There are estimates that it would cost $100,000,000,000 to deport 12,000,000 immigrants. If your figure is right, I guess 200 billion might be a better figure.

Also, there are many towns that would dry up if the "Illegals" were deported, causing much harm to working Americans. I even posted a story recently (I forget which thread) about a US town that went under when there was a crackdown on illegal immigration.

And don't feel bad about disagreeing. I have no problem as long as we stay civil and I have no doubts about either you or I being able to do that.

By the way, what do we do with the families that are part legal and part illegal?

How much knowledge of government documentation is an employer supposed to have before he is arrested?

If the "illegals" show a driver's license and SS card, but they are very good counterfeits or forged, do we still put the company out of business?

If the "Illegals" have only broken laws to get here and to get a job, do we treat them the same as murderers, rapists and terrorists?

Just some questions to think about.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Bubble: I feel similarly about the illegals in this country. I have no problem with people coming here legally. I have a problem with them sneaking across the border and living here illegally. Maybe what we should do is sneak into Canada and live there and take advantage of their health care system. Then it would all balance out. Kidding of course.

I know we have been around with this one before, but you can still join my family.:girl_hug:

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Most economists see the Mexican immigration issue as a net plus for the USA.

I do not feel that compassion for poor people is a sign of weakness and I do not think that the kind of law enforcement that you would like to see will be good for our society in the long run.

We already lead the world in prison occupancy. There are better ways to spend money than by being harsh to people who need to feed their families.

I think if we spent a while walking in the moccasins of an illegal immigrant, we might change our ideas.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I believe you are confusing issues here. I feel for illegals that come here to feed their family. But that does not change the fact that they are breaking our laws. That is not okay. It's not okay for me to go to Mexico or India or anywhere else and break their laws because I want something.

The US cannot possible take care of the entire world. It's just not possible. People don't understand this concept. They think it's sad that people have rough lives. Yes, it is sad. That doesn't make it our problem but most of all and the real key here, we CAN'T fix nor can we take care of the entire world.

If that sounds harsh, that's because it is. Reality is not always easy.

T.O.M ... what state do you live in?

I disagree with your version of reality. I see the Mexicans immigrants as becoming a part of our vibrant life and a boon to the economy. I also see them contributing even more if they do not have to hide and cluster in small areas.

There is a big difference IMHO between the laws that were broken to get here and get a job, and other laws that may have been broken. If a person working here without proper documentation robs a store, mugs someone or burglarizes a home or car or deals drugs, that is different and should disqualify that person from eventual citizenship.

I live in Florida. Many people here do not speak English. Many people here are Hispanic, but many are honored guests because the USA has a hard-arm for Fidel Castro. Why is a Cuban better than a Mexican? Why do Chinese people who make it to the USA get refugee status, but not Mexicans?

How did your ancestors get here?

My Italian ancestors were probably illegals. They were called WOP's back then. With Out Papers = Illegal.

[Carlene 12]

I believe you are confusing issues here. I feel for illegals that come here to feed their family. But that does not change the fact that they are breaking our laws. That is not okay. It's not okay for me to go to Mexico or India or anywhere else and break their laws because I want something.

The US cannot possible take care of the entire world. It's just not possible. People don't understand this concept. They think it's sad that people have rough lives. Yes, it is sad. That doesn't make it our problem but most of all and the real key here, we CAN'T fix nor can we take care of the entire world.

If that sounds harsh, that's because it is. Reality is not always easy.

T.O.M ... what state do you live in?

Actually, the only law they are breaking is the law against illegal border crossing. They generally keep a very low profile and studiously avoid breaking other laws. And you can cross into Mexico with very little risk of retribution. They would like for you to register as a foreign national, but they really don't care very much. Gringos retire to Mexico every day and bring lots of US dollars with them.

I live in Texas, so there are plenty of illegal immigrants here. I'm sure the crew that laid my slate patio were mostly illegals. They do great work, by the way, at very reasonable prices. I had actually tried to hire an Anglo, but he decided it was a job best put off until Fall.

[BJean 16]

Thanks for not deporting me from your family, TOM. How did your Italian ancestors get here without papers, btw?

Bubble and I agree on one thing - don't break the law. If you want the laws changed, go for it. But don't break the law.

It's an economic problem as well as an humanitarian one. But if we make them legal, then they'll have to pay taxes and live as Americans and pretty soon, they won't be able to live on those wages either. Then who do we bring in to do the jobs that corporations don't want to pay a living wage for?

Bubble and I disagree on the people who are responsible for enforcing the laws though. I disagree that people who employ a worker who has all the documentation needed, should be held accountable if the documents are not legally obtained. Forgeries should be tracked down and confiscated and forgers should be sent to jail. And I also disagree that saloon owners should be held accountable for a drunk going out and killing someone with his car. Nor do I believe that a guy should be prosecuted for boinking a 17 yr. old who is a willing participant. That's what the gendarmes are for. Enforcing the law. If a law is unenforcable, take it off the books or change it.

It disgusts me that we have so many laws on the books that are not enforced. Get rid of them!! Make it easy for people to know what the law is and how to abide by it. All this gray area is for the birds!

The 12 million people who are living in the U.S. illegally is a huge problem. It isn't as simple as just deporting them, unfortunately. But unless the law is changed, that's what I think should be done.

[BJean 16]

P.S. I live in Texas too and the days of the stereotypical Mexican sleeping under a sombrero are long gone! The best workers we had on our pool and on our house - both in their ability and showing up, were Mexicans. I have a lot of respect for the hard working guys who really want to work and do a good job.