Just putting it out there, so 'dirty' little secrets may see the light of day!

[determined1103 22]

I have to say I see everyone's side of this issue!!! At first this thread started to scare the hell out of me and I got somewhat discouraged about doing this surgery thinking what's the use if you can get around it BUT then it really made me think about why I'm doing this and it is a tool to help not a cure all. If anything it taught me that I need to be really mentally healthy to do this and have already dealt with your over eating issues. If you haven't it's going to be a much harder process. Like any other weight loss program u gotta work it

Well said

[clk 3,519]

To step in on an old argument here - the starting of this thread is incredibly helpful. Why? There are too many "there is only one way to do this" or "I can never, ever touch those foods again" or "if I slip up I'll fail completely" people here.

Fact? We're ALL disordered eaters. We didn't gain ten pounds one night and wake up opting for surgery the next day. The sleeve, for many of us, was the final effort after years of failed diets. Diets that, for the most part, followed these very ideas that are so damaging here:

"If it's not working, you're not trying."

"Slipping up means failure, so once you've slipped why not quit?"

"Success depends upon never, ever giving in to temptation or stress again."

This thread shows people that when they need support the most - when they slip - there are other people that have gone through it, too. There are successful vets here that can relate their stories, too.

The struggle doesn't end with surgery. It's part of us. This thread, humorous and off track at times, reflects that reality. It's also incredibly powerful because it shows people that you can still be successful even if you make mistakes. Because everyone will make a mistake eventually and they shouldn't feel they have to avoid these forums because of it or that they're being judged for their choices. This is about support. This is about being understood. Confession is good for the soul, or so they say. Getting it out in the open is a big step towards overcoming your obstacles.

Thanks again for starting this thread. It's popular because people can relate.

~Cheri

[Madam Reverie 2,958]

Thanks again for starting this thread. It's popular because people can relate.

Thank you, Cheri. Glad you can see the value in it x

[Fiddleman 4,376]

I am going to be a killjoy for a moment and succinctly state that this thread is enabling people to cheat by reinforcing said behavior with praise and congratulatory remarks.

Positive reinforcement is a powerful motivator.

I do not think this is helpful for those who are struggling or on the fence about their eating patterns, especially those that struggle with food related addictions.

That being said, everyone here should be an adult and can make their own decisions. Just know that there will be good, bad, short term and long term consequences to your decisions and prose.

Being successful at WLS does require a person to put aside a certain degree of desire and comfort in order to achieve success. Now if a person is not interested in optimizing their post op experience, then by all means, continue down this path, but do keep in mind your actions do impact others who are not strong in their convictions both directly and indirectly.

That is all.

[clk 3,519]

Some of the posts here are questionable, but I chose not to comment on that because while I don't agree with the idea of cheating or of breaking surgeon guidelines, it's a thread intended to be a confessional. Yes, there were posts that make MY three year old sleeve hurt.

It's rare to see someone post on VST that they're considering a poor choice. More often, you'll see people either confess after the fact or post on the forums in lieu of making a poor choice. And I suspect that even more frequently, people slip up and do things they know they shouldn't and never talk about that behavior.

Forums don't make people make bad choices. People make bad choices, period. The idea that my words are responsible for someone else making a decision and acting upon it removes their role of responsibility. I worship at the altar of personal responsibility. This idea bothers me as much as people posting "I can't stop <insert destructive behavior here>" because that's a lie. You CAN stop. You simply CHOOSE not to do it.

This is a hard road for all of us. Extremists on both sides of the fence are unpleasant to deal with. I have just as many "I love my fat body/I refuse to conform to society's ideal/watch me kill myself with cheesecake" acquaintances as "I never eat sugar/eating white flour will kill you/come eat some kelp smoothies with me" ones.

It's a choice. Nobody here is laboring under the mistaken impression that they're doing good things. Sharing ideas on how to cheat or eat around a surgeon guideline is just as repellent as sharing ideas on how to hide anorexia. But that wasn't the purpose of this thread, even if some people made the choice to take it there.

Ultimately, the addict doesn't need justification or validation. No amount of time here on VST, even in the "good" threads full of "right" choices is going to make a person overcome their problems without changes, better choices and most likely, several hundred hours of therapy.

Some of the threads here are almost laughable. Eating a cheeto? Eating a few bites of "bad" foods but staying well within healthy eating ranges? But people are posting here because they've been made to feel it's all or nothing and they actually feel guilt and feelings of failure for doing those things. They feel guilt for enjoying family gatherings, without realizing that ONE day of off eating is not going to sink the ship.

I agree with a large number of your posts, Fiddle. But the person that's going to take this thread as their reason to fly off the handle? That person was going to do it anyway.

Nobody here should be making poor choices, overindulging or eating around their sleeve as a regular habit. I'm fairly certain everyone here knows that. But there are different paths to success for everyone. I've made my share of poor choices, but I've been within 5% of my goal weight for more than two years - and was back there within 6 weeks of giving birth. I can only hope that people use their sense and work their sleeves to the best of their ability and make their need to confess something rare. But pretending it doesn't happen or that people don't slip up doesn't make sense to me, either.

~Cheri

[PdxMan 4,292]

Forums don't make people make bad choices. People make bad choices, period. The idea that my words are responsible for someone else making a decision and acting upon it removes their role of responsibility. I worship at the altar of personal responsibility. This idea bothers me as much as people posting "I can't stop <insert destructive behavior here>" because that's a lie. You CAN stop. You simply CHOOSE not to do it.

I've been avoiding this thread as my posts have been regarded as being the rigid naysayer while nothing further can be the truth. I agree with Fiddle, this has, at times, been a dangerous thread.

We would love to believe that everyone thinks the same way we do, but that is not the truth. Sorry Cheri, but I couldn't disagree more with the statement I quoted from your post. People who truly are addicts cannot do this, otherwise, they wouldn't be addicts. Do you really believe the heroin addict can just quit whenever they CHOOSE to? One of the tenets of addiction is the power of choice has been removed. I believe this to be true for food addicts, too, and it doesn't take much for someone who is on the fence about using xxx (fill in the blank) to be pushed over to perhaps making a poor decision.

I understand the intent of the thread, but as I posted earlier, I believe the intent strayed and became something else. It has flowed back to what I believe the OP intent was, a confessional, but as you point out, there have been several posts that are just downright scary. As I stated earlier, I worry about the person researching the sleeve, reading this thread and thinking, "Oh, so I can still sit down and eat Cheetos after I get sleeved" or "I just need to spit out the Doritos after I chew them".

As I have shared, I am also in AA. It would scare the heck out of me to be sitting in a place I thought was safe and the discussion was glorifying what we drank last night. As I have done with this thread, I would get up and leave, but I have to ask if we have any responsibility to the person who is struggling and just happens to walk into the room?

Again, I am fine with the original intent of the thread, confession, as that is a large part of AA, too. But some of the posts are, IMO, dangerous and enabling. If I truly had a choice in my relationship with food, I would have never needed this surgery.

Edited November 5, 2013 by PdxMan

[clk 3,519]

I truly enjoy and value your posts PdxMan, and I have for years. You're right, this is one place we simply don't agree.

To my mind, barring a mental issue that requires medication for "normalcy" there isn't a reason people can't change. The alcoholic that quits has the same options as the one that relapses and never succeeds at sobriety. It's a matter of will, a matter of support, and a matter of determination.

On that note, though - I do concede that while this thread is helpful for others that aren't engaging in destructive behavior often, that viewing it in light of "support for all" does diminish the value and positive intention of the thread if you consider people might view it as a learning tool.

But, oh, part of me still thinks they'd be leading themselves right off the path, anyway to do that! I'm the one that took a year to research surgery after making my decision to have surgery. I don't have a large amount of sympathy for someone who'd do this with no education and then look to a thread specifically about poor choices for support and/or rules!

My views on personal accountability stem from my past and due to my experiences I'm likely more rigid than most about this. I come from a family of addicts and abusers of all varieties. I also have a drug addicted stepdaughter. She can quit. She could quit. People around her have quit and stayed sober. She has chosen to cope with drugs, much the way people here cope with food. She hasn't hit a point where being sober means more to her than being high. If she never hits that point, my husband and I may bury another child. It saddens me and sickens me, but I don't blame the people she associates with or their influence. It's her choice every time she uses drugs. It was her choice to be with people where it was possible even if she didn't leave the house with that intent. Is it hard to say no? YES. Is it impossible? NO. People do it.

If we start down the slope of saying people aren't responsible for their actions and their choices it's a long and slippery ride to the bottom. I sat in court with the man that murdered my infant daughter while he and his lawyers (as well as his parents and a smattering of acquaintances) tried to convince a judge that shaking her to death wasn't his fault due to his traumatic childhood. That's utter crap. I make a choice every day not to be the person that I was taught to be by my childhood and my experiences. If I eat a brownie, it's because I wanted a brownie. It's because I caved or because I justified that choice or because I opted to ignore the repercussions. And yes, sometimes it's hard. And when it's hard, I sure as hell don't wander over to the "confess all your sins" thread for support!

So your point about an AA meeting being a safe place is very valid. There's a big label on this thread that says what it is, and nobody with a monkey on their back should be opening the door and inviting in the trouble. That said, yes, I agree with you about some of the posts. I wish the tone of some of these posts were different. Nobody should be gleeful about sabotaging their success with a massive binge or eating ahead of their surgical guidelines. But again...people will do what they want and were already doing it. This thread is just putting it out in the open, for better or worse.

I hope that neither Fiddle or PdxMan are upset on a personal level. We all disagree and we all feel we're right or we wouldn't take the time to post or share our opinions!

~Cheri

[gamergirl 4,610]

To add my 2 cents, worth about one today,as someone struggling to do the right thing, as a newly sleeved person, and someone who doesn't believe in crazy extremes unless you are truly addicted, this thread was like watching a train wreck. I wanted to quit reading it, I was horrified, but I couldn't turn my eyes away. I had to force myself to walk away because it was so upsetting to hear people being told physically dangerous things were okay.

I don't think it's entirely accurate that the only people who would stray from just reading this thread are the ones who would stray anyway. We're looking to learn. If other people are doing it, we often wonder if it is truly okay to do it. It's not "permission" as in absolve me of my sins, it's permission as in, it's well within allowable guidelines.

There's a 5 confessions thread here that hasn't derailed. People have posted very personal and heart-felt fears. I don't think the forum dissuades people from posting for help or people who are kicking themselves for having made a small mistake.

This thread though was congratulatory. It was glorifying cheating. It was saying you can do scary **** because I did and I didn't die. It was often saying I ignored my doctors orders and I survived. It celebrated cheating. Sorry, not everyone may not see it that way, but I did.

I'm with PDXman. An addict walks in to get help, and people are high fiving about blacking out the night before.

We're addicts. We will slip up. But I want to surround myself with people who don't Celebrate slipping up, but rather accept weakness and falliability as part of the journey.

Big difference.

[PdxMan 4,292]

Don't worry Cheri, I have always enjoyed your posts over the years and I understand why you haven't been as active lately as I see your bundle of joy in your avatar.

But I think you diminish the power addiction has over some people. It isn't as simple as making a choice. It is difficult to explain to someone who may not truly know addiction (speaking to the general audience, not just you, Cheri). It is like trying to explain green to a blind person.

If you were to look back to when I first went into rehab ... look back at all the events that led to it, you would wonder how any sane person could do these things to themselves. But that is the key word there ... sane. At first, when I abused alcohol, it was fun. Then it became a job ... then it became my tormentor. I no longer drank for enjoyment, I no longer drank to escape or blackout. I had completely lost the power of choice. I remember many times driving home from work (45 minutes) saying to myself that I was not going to stop at the bar, but then remembering this promise at midnight ... at the bar ... wondering how I even got there.

Addiction is a cunning, powerful baffling foe for some. Again, we all know our own experiences and we see through those glasses. Addiction may have more facets than you realize.

[sophiepants 489]

I personal know the difference. I slipped up and have not since. I feel dam good about myself truth be told. I see how it seems like it is a huge deal. But my resolve from then has been rock hard. Hopefully my one indulgent on a pie piece has not offended anyone. It is not a behavior I condoned and plan on continuing. But It happened and I confessed. Mistakes happen to me I'm human. I will not be crying 6 months or 6 years down the road knowing I ate one slip up. If that is my down fall then It's my fault. I will own it. I want this to work with my whole being and having a oops does not define my habits. It may look like it on this post but I didn't get out of it what others have. I moved on. That said I get it. It is dangers behavior. But I understood the point of the starting of this thread....you do mess up your not alone. Not tryn to start anything...lordy I'm still new here and figuring things out!! I do see how some might get a support idea outta this .

Edited November 5, 2013 by sophiepants

[clk 3,519]

Isn't it nice to see that people can have a difference of opinion, share their views and/or feelings and not see things devolve into chaos and drama?

This time of year is particularly difficult for me and I tend to be hard nosed and view things in black and white at the best of times. I have never dealt with a substance addiction personally, so you're right - it's probably as easy for me to argue what it's like as it is for a lifelong skinny person to judge a fat one.

And gamergirl brings up a great point - that the other confession thread didn't take this tangent.

In any case, I actually avoid this thread myself. I see merit in the idea behind it. My post, while a confession, was also a warning about watching behaviors and hopefully, a story that reflects that even with struggles along the way we can succeed and maintain our losses. But this isn't where I'd be for support because I'm past needing to justify or seek validation/absolution for my food sins!

~Cheri

[No game 14,437]

Cheri your original post facilitated a very important AND civil conversation here.

I wanted to thank you for that

[Montereygrl 104]

Last night I ate 4 bites of soft serve and a whole mini cupcake.

This morning it's right back on the straight and narrow. I've vowed not to beat myself up if and when I slip up. Instead I'm focusing on the positive. Over 40 lbs in two months, 3 pants sizes and 2 shirt sizes.

[Nicolanz 1,484]

It's all about how we perceive things. If you find this conversation dangerous, stay away. If helpful, contribute. We are not responsible for anyone but ourselves. I like knowing how others take on this journey and knowing I'm not alone in making mistakes, but someone confessing to eating chili fries isn't going to influence me to eat them too.

I like this topic, thanks for being brave enough to start it.

[No game 14,437]

I must say the sentence about "if you find this conversation dangerous stay away" doesn't sit right..

I've thought about that "them" and "us" attitude.

But at the end of the day we are all "them" and I welcome the opposing views so we can all get the full picture.