Anti-Semitism In France!

[GeezerSue 7]

... Pain, sickness and death came into the world because man sinned. Healing and even medical science as well as all knowledge is a gift from God. ...

So...did some ancient dog sin, too? My friend's dog had cancer, so I figured...

[GeezerSue 7]

BTW, Ron...since God is in charge of all this and since gluttony is a sin...why are you BOTHERING with a band? Why not just pray to stop sinning? Don't you trust God to fix it for you? I mean..faith and all....

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There are many millions of conservative Christians and the majority of Bible scolars who would disagree with you regarding taking the Word of God literally. If it can't be taken literally, and it is just a bunch of "stories" then we might as well throw it out and completely disregard it. There is NO contradiction in the Bible, unly a lack of understanding and not viewing the whole portrait of scripture. Scripture intreprets scripture.

No! People with an agenda interpret scripture.

Why should we throw out a beautiful story because it is not "word for word" true? The story of the "Tortoise and the Hare", never happened, nor did the story of the "Grasshopper and the Ant", but we still can gain from their message of wisdom.

You said Jesus never spoke in the Bible, and yet the New Testament is froll of His quotes. You say we have to rely on the New Testament writers about what Jesus said. Well, everytime you read a newspaper, an article, a book or listen to the news or a teacher, you are relying on first person quotes. There were the men who lived with Jesus and experienced the things written about, and went to their deaths because of their beliefs.

And many of these men could not write, but instead passed on by word of mouth what they remembered to others, who passed it on until someone who could write, wrote it down. The moral of the story may be accurate, but much of the exactness may be distorted. Have you ever heard a story after that story was passed along by 3 people? That is why “hear-say” evidence is not allowed in a court of law.

I watched a 911 documentary recently, and even though I knew the story was correct in principal, many of the words used were inaccurate and some conclusions false. And this is with modern recording equipment.

Christianity is based upon the teachings of Scripture. If you discount scriptures you have no foundation upon which to base a belief system. If you don't know that Jesus was who He claimed to be and did what He did, then you can't be a follower of Jesus. The Jesus figure you claim to worship is based entirely on a figment of your imagination instead of strong biblical evidence. You are describeing a "blibd faith" that is based upon whatever you choose to believe. That is why the Bible was given . . to provide evidence of the messianiac credentials of the Messiah.

Jesus being a messiah doesn't prove he was quoted properly. Jesus being a messiah doesn't prove he was the son of God anymore than any of the other billions of male children of God. My wife is a daughter of God, as is my grand-daughter.

And yes, I have faith, because I DO NOT KNOW.

Again, I am not going to get into your politics because it is not a simplistic as you make it out to be. A lot of the problems that you talk about have been made by people in both parties and is in no way a reflection of spiritual beliefs.

I agree that our problems in the Middle-East have been caused by both parties with their "America has the right to do what it needs to do to protect its interests anywhere in the world" philosophy. But only George W. BuSh invades countries on the word of Jesus. Or should I say after consulting Jesus?

And regarding “hear-say evidence not being allowed in a court of law”. That must be modified to “Except in Bush Tribunals”, where not only hear-say, but evidence from torture will be allowed. Sort of like the Salem Witch Trials.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Sue,

You, like Grumpy-Old-Man are missing the big picture here. We live in a world that has been corrupted by sin. As the result, the world and everything and everyone in it suffers from the consequences of sin - sickness, pain, death, etc.

Why did I get the band since gluttony is a sin?? Because once we come to believe, we are forgiven, but we are still sinners, and we are weak in the flesh. We try and do our best to repent (turn away from sin) but we are still sinners and weak. The difference is, with Jesus, we are forgiven!

Can God just heal me if He chooses? Of course He can, however, for whatever reason, He has chosen not to. Even the Apostle Paul had an affliction that He ask God to heal, which God choose not to, and Paul counted it as a life lesson to remind him of who he really was, and to humble him. I can't answer for God for everything He decides, but I can trust that He has a good reason for all he does allow.

I also believe that all knowledge, even mediacl knowledge, if a gift from God, and since God has provided this tool for me, I consider it a blessing from Him!

Sue, God loves you and wants to have a personal relationship with you. My prayer is that you might put your bias aside and give God a chance to work in your life. You sound like an intelligent and thoughtful women, and I personally think that if you dilligently investigated the biblical evidence wtih an open heart, that you would come to a different conclusion.

BTW, Ron...since God is in charge of all this and since gluttony is a sin...why are you BOTHERING with a band? Why not just pray to stop sinning? Don't you trust God to fix it for you? I mean..faith and all....

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

You apparently have not grasped a thing from the discussions yesterday about this same subject or else you get some kind of pleasure attacking Christian believe and biblical understanding.

I am not attacking a Christian. I am stating the obvious. Modern medical science is doing the cures. Why did not prayer heal without the need for the same science which proves that "word for word" believe in the bible is inaccurate?

As far as my grasp is concerned. I have a grasp of what was said, but I do not have to agree with it and I do not.

You would feel insulted (and you should) if I asked you or any other Christian (of similar beliefs): When are you going to grow up and understand reality? But I will not do that.

My grasp is fine. It is just different than yours.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Sue,

You, like Grumpy-Old-Man are missing the big picture here.

Yes Sue, you and I are too stupid to see the big picture. I am now Grumpy-Old-Man, because I do not see it Ron's way.

Ron: Did you pray to Jesus for a fitting name to call me? Or did you call the White House for help in deciding what name to use? I realize that people like you and BuSh who have direct consultations with Jesus have probably been introduced to each other and are on a personal name basis.

What do you call the president? George? Mr. President? W?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Why doesn't prayer heal?? Sometimes it does, however, the Bible does not provide a guarantee that God will heal everything, everytime. Sometimes, God does not heal through prayer, for whatever reason. I don't know the whole mind of God. Sometimes God heals through other means, like medical science, whic I believe also comes from God.

What I asked you previously is to give a reason for your stated belief system. You know the Bible says that we should "be ready always to give a reason for the hope that is within you"! That is what I have been doing here on this thread. I am jus asking if you are willing to do the same!!

You are entitled to believe anything your choose, anyway you want. Since you are raising all of this objections to biblical understanding, I am just asking you to give some evidence to substanciate you statements. Just feeling or believeing something is not evidence. When someone believes something, there is a reason and evidence that causes one to come to their conclusions. Do you have any??

I am not attacking a Christian. I am stating the obvious. Modern medical science is doing the cures. Why did not prayer heal without the need for the same science which proves that "word for word" believe in the bible is inaccurate?

As far as my grasp is concerned. I have a grasp of what was said, but I do not have to agree with it and I do not.

You would feel insulted (and you should) if I asked you or any other Christian (of similar beliefs): When are you going to grow up and understand reality? But I will not do that.

My grasp is fine. It is just different than yours.

[TommyO 5]

Ron I will "Tell Him That" but what will you tell him.

I can only imagine what you may have done in your life to need such forgiveness.

Let me tell you a little secret, I have no secrets and because of that I have no fear. If your God is so smart I am sure he will be able to figure out that being a good person is what matters. I feel comfortable that if that day comes he will have far more to discuss with you.

I grew up surrounded by christians who were good people. I had 3 aunts who were Catholic Nun's and they devoted their lives to Gods work. I loved them dearly and that love was returned in kind. I have no problem with their Christianity or any Christianity that is good. Many people who post on this site are Christians and they are good people. I am very happy that they are secure in their beleifs and happy in their choices.

I am also secure in my beliefs and happy in my choices and I know I am a good person. I do not beleif in God but I also am not a sinner by anyones standards. I feel extremely confident that over the course of our lifetimes it is highly likely that you have sinned the most. I don't know you but I think I have a pretty good idea who you are.

Do the words false prophet mean anything to you, Judge not oh great and powerful OZ. I know you feel a strong sense of satisfaction when you imagine how your God will settle the score with me on judgement day. But the God of my Aunts and other good Christians isn't coming for me

ask not for whom the Bell tolls Rony Boy.............

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Sometimes God heals through other means, like medical science, whic I believe also comes from God.

Why would medical science (or any science) come from God?

Wasn't it the free will of the people to become scientists?

Wasn't it the free will of the scientists to pick their branch of science?

Wasn't it the free will of the scientists to chose the techniques that led them to their breakthroughs?

Wasn't it the free will of the scientists to discover evolution through the use of scientific principles?

Wasn't it the free will of the medical scientists to discover medical breakthroughs that led to the many cures we have today through the use of scientific principles?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Well, Tom,

The Bible says that "all have sinned and come shore of the glory of God"! I would imagine that includes you and me! If you have ever lies, been angry, and a bad thought, stolen a paperclip from work, whatever, then that makes you a sinner by God's standards.

You presume that I have terrible things in my life that need forgiveness. Since you don't know me, that presumption is as baseless as your other comments and arguments. I am a father, grandfather of 9, worked hard to support my family all my life, never killed anyone, robbed a bank or did anything that would land me in jail. And yet, by God's standards I an a sinner and in need of forgiveness.

You think of yourself as a "good person" and by the worlds standards I have no doubt that you are. But, God's standards are not the world's standards. The Bible say's, "They are all gone out of the way,they are together become unprofitable;there is none that doeth good,no, no one" You say you "are not a sinner by anyone standards" but you are by God's standards which demand perfection to be sinless.

You say you don't believe in God, and I am sorry to hear that! You apparently think you have it all together and that God is a fable. All I can say to you is that God has an answer for that . . . "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominal works, there is none that doeth good" Psa. 14:1 I think that you are in need of forgiveness, as are we all.

Ron I will "Tell Him That" but what will you tell him.

I can only imagine what you may have done in your life to need such forgiveness.

Let me tell you a little secret, I have no secrets and because of that I have no fear. If your God is so smart I am sure he will be able to figure out that being a good person is what matters. I feel comfortable that if that day comes he will have far more to discuss with you.

I grew up surrounded by christians who were good people. I had 3 aunts who were Catholic Nun's and they devoted their lives to Gods work. I loved them dearly and that love was returned in kind. I have no problem with their Christianity or any Christianity that is good. Many people who post on this site are Christians and they are good people. I am very happy that they are secure in their beleifs and happy in their choices.

I am also secure in my beliefs and happy in my choices and I know I am a good person. I do not beleif in God but I also am not a sinner by anyones standards. I feel extremely confident that over the course of our lifetimes it is highly likely that you have sinned the most. I don't know you but I think I have a pretty good idea who you are.

Do the words false prophet mean anything to you, Judge not oh great and powerful OZ. I know you feel a strong sense of satisfaction when you imagine how your God will settle the score with me on judgement day. But the God of my Aunts and other good Christians isn't coming for me

ask not for whom the Bell tolls Rony Boy.............

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

This is not fair:

Two TOM's against one Ron.:faint::help:

[Ron Cusano 0]

You know, everyone on the board has agreed to leave the personal attacks and the snide remarks out, and engage in serious discussion. I find it interesting that you find it necessary to keep baiting, but that you don't seem to be able to present intelligent, thoughtful foundational reasoning for your remarks. Perhaps what is not fair here is trying to engage you in a meaningful discussion. That is very sad!

This is not fair:

Two TOM's against one Ron.:faint::help:

[TommyO 5]

Hey Ron, it's not my bible so you can't convince me by quoting it. Now here are some thoughts below you might want to ponder as you proclaim to all your full understanding of God and his intent.

New Testament

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.< /span>

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Old Testament

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Jer 14:16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Interesting that you would choose to quote from the Bible that you don't believe in. Of course, I am familiar with all of these verses. Is there some point to you quoting them???

By the way, I never said that I have "full understanding of God and his intent"! It seems to be very charactaristic for those who do not believe in the God of the Bible, to make up quotes to try to make a specific point! Would you care to show me where I made that claim??

Hey Ron, it's not my bible so you can't convince me by quoting it. Now here are some thoughts below you might want to ponder as you proclaim to all your full understanding of God and his intent.

New Testament

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.

2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.< /span>

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Tim 4:2 [NIV] Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Old Testament

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

Jer 14:16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

This is not fair:

Two TOM's against one Ron.

You know, everyone on the board has agreed to leave the personal attacks and the snide remarks out, and engage in serious discussion. I find it interesting that you find it necessary to keep baiting, but that you don't seem to be able to present intelligent, thoughtful foundational reasoning for your remarks. Perhaps what is not fair here is trying to engage you in a meaningful discussion. That is very sad!

Maybe you need to ask Jesus for a sense of humor.

If anything, I was giving you credit for being able to hold off two debaters at once.

And it wasn't I who made fun of another member's name. I am not Grumpy(-Old-Man), but your lack of a sense of humor might lead you to become grumpy.

Who says my points have not been intelligent? You?

Who says we have not had a meaningful discussion? You?

You do remind me of our favorite president. You know the one who wants bipartisanship, by which he means, “see it my (party's) way”.

Would the discussion be more meaningful if I said, "Ron, you have opened my eyes. I now KNOW that every word of the Bible is “word for word” true and that only with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will anyone ever be able to gain eternal life. PS: All Muslims, most Jews and many other people who worship the wrong way are doomed to eternal damnation. Thank you, Ron. Thank you."

Now, that's what we call meaningful dialog!!:faint: