Anti-Semitism In France!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I believe, as science has well documented, that there can be changes within a kind of animal. In other words, dogs can be bred or can naturally develop with certain traits highlighted over others. I do not believe, nor has science documented, a change from one KIND of animal into another. No dog has ever changed into a cat, no fish has ever changed into a bird.

We already argued that and no one said that a dog could be changed into a cat by evolution. At least no one with any modern knowlege of evolution.

It was said that two different animals could come from the same common animal. A Zebra and horse probably came from a common ancestor; the Equidae family.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I read the beginning of this thread and then it got too long for me to read it all.

I just wanted to say that I found the first post highly offensive.

I live in an Arab country where 200 nationalities live peacefully side by side.

It is an Islamic country in the true meaning of the word where people are gentle and hospitable.(Judaism,Islam and Christianity are from the same root and their followers are known in Islam as "people of the book".)

Anyone who comes here loves it which is why it has become one of the main holiday destinations for people from the U.K. followed by Germany and Russia.

The sentence that Arab countries only export oil and hatred was just as much a terrible and untrue thing to say as are the Anti-Semetic things I have personally heard said in France.

I have French Jewish friends that I've stayed with since childhood so I am not biased in any way but I think you have a lot to learn about the Arab world Ron.

I am wondering how many Arab countries that "export hatred" you have actually visited?

I have visited your country however and experienced great prejudice and ignorance...because I live in an Arab country:rolleyes: What sense does that make?

I worry about Anti-Semitism on the rise but there are other things now that I am worrying about far more and that is the type of propoganda you have spouted as mentioned above.

However sad to say,I am not in the least surprised.

Yana:)

P.S. I have travelled the world and the country that is my home is the cleanest and more importantly the safest and most harmonious I have been to.

Until Yana's post, we had subconsciously bought in to the perversion of this thread.

We had been debating if my acceptance of Jesus was enough (or the right way or if I accepted Jesus for the right reasons) as we were also were debating whether Carlene's (and other Roman Catholics) way of version worshiping Jesus was good enough and whether relatives of some LBT members would gain entrance into Heaven without believing the "correct" way about Jesus or their version of Christianity was good enough.

Yes, we fell into the trap set by the opening post of this thread. A trap which contends that there is only one way to gain entrance into Heaven.

Over a billion people believe in the Qur'an, a basic retelling of the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) with a different flavor. Saying that the only way to enter Heaven depends on Jesus, leaves out the Jews and the Muslims, although they believe in the same God as the Christians, and Muslims believe in Jesus. No, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, nor part of a triune, but they do believe that he was born of a virgin birth by Mary, and placed in her by God and that Jesus was the most perfect prophet and most perfect human in history.

If I accept Jesus as my personal Saviour, do I have to refute the possibility of Jews and Muslims being saved? In my opinion; NO!! Ask me to quote scripture if you want and I will frustrate you by telling you that the tone of the New testament is love, compassion and forgiveness. And those are the lessons that Jesus preached and that I hear.

Accuse me of being a Liberal. I am.

Accuse me of being tolerant. I am.

And I do not think that my being either Liberal and/or tolerant, that I will lose my place in Heaven.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

How do I allow for the differences between what the Jews and Muslims believe and most Christians believe? How do I allow for the differences between what different types of Christians believe? Was the Bible divinely written?

The problem may not be the writing, but the translations and the politics. We have discussed translation ad nauseam, but politics played a large part also. I believe that “Revelations” does not belong in the Bible, because it was actually satirical letters written about the Roman emperor, using allegoric terms and metaphors. Much like “Alice in Wonderland”, it was not about what it was purported to be about (literally).

I also believe that many parts of the Bible were left out. There is supposed to be a Gospel of Judas and a Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Thomas as well as a whole group of letters know as the book of Gnostic's.

But politics played a very large role in what was included in the different versions of the Bible(s).

Do I know which are right? No.

But no one else does either.

I will have to depend on God being fair and since he is so much more intelligent than I, I will hope he knows that no one of the 21st Century could possibly know which Holy Book is the real Holy Book, or if any that are around today actually embody his teachings. I have faith that my beliefs will carry me (and other people who love God) to my hoped for eventual outcome.

No, I do not know. I just have faith that it is true.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I don't know if I prefer being ignored or attacked.:frusty:

[BJean 16]

TOM: What you just posted makes sense to me about Ron's motives. Why else would this drone on for so long and why else would he keep insisting that the only way to heaven is through acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior.

The more I learn about the right wing extremists, the more I fear them. When I was a young girl I knew that they were frightening people and I shied away from them. When I married a man who turned out to have that extremist inner core, I could not live with him, or respect him. Participating in this thread has helped me to understand better why I have always had such frustration and dislike for the right wingers who are the very poster children for hypocrisy and discrimination.

Learning so much about myself and others makes me feel less guilty for sitting in my office for so many hours participating in all of this. And TOM I owe you my thanks and that of several others, Wheetsin, laurend, gadgetlady, Carlene, wavydaby and especially this morning of Yana, and even crazy ole Ron, for helping me sort out a lot of things through this thread.

[Ron Cusano 0]

You misquoted me! I did not say "the Bible proves that the Bible is a literal document", what I said was that "the Bible interprets the Bible"! Big difference! I said the Bible is to be taken literally. The statement "the Bible proves that the Bible is a literal document" doen't mean anything.

Even about the word literal, we're arguing semantics.

I don't know that anyone here is arguing that if we take the Bible literally, and we don't we adapt the Biblical words to today's needs, that we are going to miss the message. I would imagine that we all pretty much agree that we must adapt the Bible's words to today's vernacular so that we can understand the messages.

The argument started out as one person saying that the Bible proves that the Bible is a literal document. Obviously it isn't and even the people who say that some of the Biblical teachings can be taken literally, they agree that some cannot. So that pretty much wraps it up, doesn't it?

[Ron Cusano 0]

You give a lot of empty opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up except you own imagination. Care to substanciate any of this?

How do I allow for the differences between what the Jews and Muslims believe and most Christians believe? How do I allow for the differences between what different types of Christians believe? Was the Bible divinely written?

The problem may not be the writing, but the translations and the politics. We have discussed translation ad nauseam, but politics played a large part also. I believe that “Revelations” does not belong in the Bible, because it was actually satirical letters written about the Roman emperor, using allegoric terms and metaphors. Much like “Alice in Wonderland”, it was not about what it was purported to be about (literally).

I also believe that many parts of the Bible were left out. There is supposed to be a Gospel of Judas and a Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Thomas as well as a whole group of letters know as the book of Gnostic's.

But politics played a very large role in what was included in the different versions of the Bible(s).

Do I know which are right? No.

But no one else does either.

I will have to depend on God being fair and since he is so much more intelligent than I, I will hope he knows that no one of the 21st Century could possibly know which Holy Book is the real Holy Book, or if any that are around today actually embody his teachings. I have faith that my beliefs will carry me (and other people who love God) to my hoped for eventual outcome.

No, I do not know. I just have faith that it is true.

[ousooner 1]

The Bible was written for very ignorant people.

That's a very Ron-like judgemental statement. Count me as ignorant then.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Just endless hot air, opinion and complain ing with nothing to back up anything you say. You gon't have the guts to put youn beliefs out there so don't you dare have the right to judge mine. Talk about being a hypocrite!

Until Yana's post, we had subconsciously bought in to the perversion of this thread.

We had been debating if my acceptance of Jesus was enough (or the right way or if I accepted Jesus for the right reasons) as we were also were debating whether Carlene's (and other Roman Catholics) way of version worshiping Jesus was good enough and whether relatives of some LBT members would gain entrance into Heaven without believing the "correct" way about Jesus or their version of Christianity was good enough.

Yes, we fell into the trap set by the opening post of this thread. A trap which contends that there is only one way to gain entrance into Heaven.

Over a billion people believe in the Qur'an, a basic retelling of the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) with a different flavor. Saying that the only way to enter Heaven depends on Jesus, leaves out the Jews and the Muslims, although they believe in the same God as the Christians, and Muslims believe in Jesus. No, Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, nor part of a triune, but they do believe that he was born of a virgin birth by Mary, and placed in her by God and that Jesus was the most perfect prophet and most perfect human in history.

If I accept Jesus as my personal Saviour, do I have to refute the possibility of Jews and Muslims being saved? In my opinion; NO!! Ask me to quote scripture if you want and I will frustrate you by telling you that the tone of the New testament is love, compassion and forgiveness. And those are the lessons that Jesus preached and that I hear.

Accuse me of being a Liberal. I am.

Accuse me of being tolerant. I am.

And I do not think that my being either Liberal and/or tolerant, that I will lose my place in Heaven.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Although you try to saty above the fray, I think you are going to find that your beliefs are going to be endlessly attacked should you try to make a case for them here. You consider me judgemental? I proclaim the Word of God, and yeah, people feel judged and convicted by the Word. I make no apoligies for that.

That's a very Ron-like judgemental statement. Count me as ignorant then.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

That's a very Ron-like judgemental statement. Count me as ignorant then.

Excuse me.

I thought that the context of my post would indicate that I was speaking (writing) about the people alive at the time of the writing of the Bible (and shortly there-after).

I do not count you as ignorant.

[BJean 16]

Oh pardon me Ron. You didn't say that the Bible proves that the Bible is a literal document?

You only said that the Bible interprets the Bible. Yes, I do recall you saying that part, for sure. You talked about proof so much I must have somehow mixed it all up.

So you are the source of the backup for arguing that the Bible should be taken literally. So you are stating opinion that the words are to be understood as they are written, literally. I guess I have been misunderstanding you all along. You've insisted that everyone else somehow back up their opinions but if your only back up for the lengthy ad naseum argument that the Bible is to be interpreted literally is just your opinion, I have obviously misunderstood much of what you've been arguing.

[ousooner 1]

Just endless hot air, opinion and complain ing with nothing to back up anything you say. You gon't have the guts to put youn beliefs out there so don't you dare have the right to judge mine. Talk about being a hypocrite!

Ron - this is not preaching the word. This is the type of judgemental post I am refering to.

[BJean 16]

Seems Yana has ruffled some feathers this morning. Refreshing.

ousooner: I certainly didnt assume that TOM was referring to the people in this era as ignorant. That "context" thing can sure get us messed up sometimes, can't it?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Just endless hot air, opinion and complain ing with nothing to back up anything you say. You gon't have the guts to put youn beliefs out there so don't you dare have the right to judge mine. Talk about being a hypocrite!

I think that anyone reading my writings has a firm grasp on my beliefs.

If what I have said does not explain my beliefs to you, consider yourself in the minority.

I prefer hot air that comes from a mind working and generating heat (check out a PTscan of the brain) to that of copying and pasting quotes from a book.

A college professor once described a lecture as a process by which notes from his notebook enter a student's notebook without ever passing through the mind of either of them.