Anti-Semitism In France!

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

Sorry for the name thing. It is not arrogant at all, it is Biblical fact. I am saying that if you believe that you must participate in your own salvation, aside from believing, than you will not go to Heaven, which is what your church teaches.

You still don't get it, do you,Ron? To say that I MIGHT go to heaven in spite of my Catholic beliefs is unbelievably arrogant. And so NOT what Jesus would do.
PS.....could you please stop calling me "Charlene"? Thanks.

Carlene · February 27, 2007

It doesen't differ at all. If you REALLY coem to Believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you are changed. It's a gradualy, growing change, but you are never the same. The fruits, or good works are the indication that the change is happening within you. Once you truly believe, nothing can pluck you out of the Lords hands.

So a person who doesn't perform "good works" isn't really saved? Is that what you're saying?

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

The "fruits" are the result of the completed salvation experience. It does not bring about salvation. It is not different in the least.

That differs a LOT from what you said several pages ago.
Edited to add...

Gee...that sounds a lot like "good works" to me... "By their fruits you shall know that they are mine."

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

I am saying that if a person does not show a changed life, his salvation claim is suspect. We all grow in grace and knowledge at different rates so someone who is a new Believer is not going to instantly be transformed to a perfect person. We are works in progress!

So a person who doesn't perform "good works" isn't really saved? Is that what you're saying?

Carlene · February 27, 2007

The "fruits" are the result of the completed salvation experience. It does not bring about salvation.

Okay.....I think I have it!

You must be saved in order to go to heaven.

If you are truly saved, you will perform good works.

Therefore, good works are required to get to heaven.

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

Oh, come on now Carlene! You are twisting what I said and you know it. To be saved, you need to trust Jesus completely for your salvation, and Him alone. Once you are saved, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are changed, and the result of that change is good works. It is not the good works that gets you to Heaven. It is the atoning death and shed blood of the Messiah. Don't play word games.

Okay.....I think I have it!
You must be saved in order to go to heaven.

If you are truly saved, you will perform good works.

Therefore, good works are required to get to heaven.

wavydaby · February 27, 2007

Point 1 - I agree with you completely!!
Point 5: No matter how many times yousay I am putting a twist on your words Ron, you still think that I am gonna go to hell, EVEN though, I have accepted the one and only Jesus Christ as my savior and still go to a Catholic Church, while trying not to do bad things on a daily basis and occasionally confessing my sins to a priest and doing some "our Fathers" and "Hail Mary's" I don't care what church you go to, if you accept Jesus as you offering for sin, and Him alone, you will go to Heaven. As I explained to Carlene, if you are releying of a priest to absolve you of your sin, penence or good works to earn you forgiveness, they you muddy the waters, and are not trusting Jesus alone. You are trustin yourself and others to help get you to Heaven. It is not a matter of what church, but what you believe.

This was a respectful answer, and the tone was different than what you have said in the past. In the past, the tone you had was more negative. I appreciate what you have said and not made enbolden statements where the tone leads me to believe that you alone are correct.

I will say this that, while you are saved, you are changed and you will do good deed/works. Doing those good works sometimes is not just a matter of doing it by your state of being saved. Sometimes doing those good works is a matter of actually having to think about what you are going to do and choosing to do them. It can be a very difficult decision to do a particular "good work". What I am saying is that being saved, you will want to do good works, but sometimes doing those good works is HARD.

I am not "earning forgiveness" while I am doing a good work, I am living the life that Christ wants me to.

Its symnatics that I am trying to point out and for the life of me can not get my mind to spit out what I want it to say. You MUST do good works. I can accept Christ, but being saved will not MAKE me do good works, I must MAKE me do it.

And sometimes I must put myself in to the position to do the good works. I can not let the good works "come to me"

I do have to rely on myself to complete my part of the bargan with Christ.

It reminds me of something that a single friend told me once. She told me that if God wanted her to have a boyfriend/spouse, He would get one for her. I told her if that if she wanted a boyfriend (which she did), God helps those who help themselves.

Am I making any sence to anyone but myself? Sorry, I have wording issues.

Carlene · February 27, 2007

Oh, come on now Carlene! You are twisting what I said and you know it. To be saved, you need to trust Jesus completely for your salvation, and Him alone. Once you are saved, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you are changed, and the result of that change is good works. It is not the good works that gets you to Heaven. It is the atoning death and shed blood of the Messiah. Don't play word games.

How is this a word game? Show me where this logic is not accurate.

1. Accepting Christ = being saved

2. Being saved = desire to do good works

3. The truly saved perform good works

4. Only the truly saved go to heaven

5. To go to heaven, you must perform good works

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

Jill, that was a lovely answer and shows your heart. Once saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us and gives us the desire to do good works. The "flesh" points us in the other direction. The Apostle Paul wrestled with this and wrote about it in the Book of Romans.

When we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, we are changed, forever. We desire to do good works and must be willing to allow the Lord to change us. This is waht repentance is all about. Turning from sin and changing. It is a growing and refining process that lasts all of our lives until we go home to be with the Lord. It is also difficult, and we sometimes have set backs.

The important thing we need to remember is that all of this comes from being saved; it does not cause us to be saved. The grace of God through the atoning work of Jesus was sufficient for that.

I can never take credit for always being correct, but the Word of God is always correct and that is what I stand on. It is the fopundation of the faith.

This was a respectful answer, and the tone was different than what you have said in the past. In the past, the tone you had was more negative. I appreciate what you have said and not made enbolden statements where the tone leads me to believe that you alone are correct.
I will say this that, while you are saved, you are changed and you will do good deed/works. Doing those good works sometimes is not just a matter of doing it by your state of being saved. Sometimes doing those good works is a matter of actually having to think about what you are going to do and choosing to do them. It can be a very difficult decision to do a particular "good work". What I am saying is that being saved, you will want to do good works, but sometimes doing those good works is HARD.

I am not "earning forgiveness" while I am doing a good work, I am living the life that Christ wants me to.

Its symnatics that I am trying to point out and for the life of me can not get my mind to spit out what I want it to say. You MUST do good works. I can accept Christ, but being saved will not MAKE me do good works, I must MAKE me do it.

And sometimes I must put myself in to the position to do the good works. I can not let the good works "come to me"

I do have to rely on myself to complete my part of the bargan with Christ.

It reminds me of something that a single friend told me once. She told me that if God wanted her to have a boyfriend/spouse, He would get one for her. I told her if that if she wanted a boyfriend (which she did), God helps those who help themselves.

Am I making any sence to anyone but myself? Sorry, I have wording issues.

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

You are drawing an inaccurate conclusion.

You would be correct if you changed #5 to say - Those truly saved display a changed life showing good works which attest to having a salvation experience.

Someone can have a salvation experience, go out an get hit by a car and die, before there is time for evidence of salvation through good works. That person is no less saved. Again, it is not the good works that is required for salvation, it is Jesus, and Him alone. The good works are an "outward sign of an inward change", just like Biblical baptism.

How is this a word game? Show me where this logic is not accurate.
1. Accepting Christ = being saved

2. Being saved = desire to do good works

3. The truly saved perform good works

4. Only the truly saved go to heaven

5. To go to heaven, you must perform good works

Carlene · February 27, 2007

With all due respect, you obviously do not have a grasp of the whole of scripture or you could not even make those remarks.

You may want to consider actually studying and learning the scriptures so you can understand tham instead of picking a nd choosing verses, usually out of context, to try to make a case that can't be made.

Archolological finds, including the Dead Sea Scrolls have substanciated that todays Bibles are 100% accuarate compared to the oldest known manuscripts that date back BC.

With all due respect, you obviously have an over-rated opinion of yourself and your knowledge of biblical matters. I have studied the Bible, by the way. I was privileged to have a unique religious education when I was growing up. A Jesuit priest (close family friend) came every Sunday afternoon and taught me - not just Catholicism, but how to read and study the Bible, too. (Jesuits, for those not familiar with Catholic orders, are the scholars of the Catholic Church.) If I have a grasp of the Bible or the teachings of the Church (and I've been told I do), it is due solely to the influence of Father Tommy.

Having said that, I also studied religion in college - two semesters (Religions of the World and Comparitive Religion). I made A's in both classes.

Would you now care to state your credentials?

As for picking verses "out of context", a literal interpretation of the Bible, by definition, means that context does not matter. If every word - every verse - of the Bible is utterly and completely true, then every verse stands alone, as evidence of that.

Would you please cite your references for your statement regarding the 100% accuracy of today's Bibles?

Carlene · February 27, 2007

Someone can have a salvation experience, go out an get hit by a car and die, before there is time for evidence of salvation through good works. That person is no less saved.

Okay.....then this should work. And it's perfectly logical.

1. Accepting Christ = being saved

2. Being saved = desire to do good works

3. The truly saved perform good works

4. Only the truly saved go to heaven

5. To go to heaven, you must perform good works, or be prevented from doing so thru no fault of your own.

Ron Cusano · February 27, 2007

No! Same wrong conclusion!! To go to Heaven you don't have to do anything but accept God's free gift of salvation through Jesus who died for your sins. He did it all!! PERIOD! Your good works have nothing to do with you going to Heaven!

uote=Carlene;401588]Okay.....then this should work. And it's perfectly logical.

1. Accepting Christ = being saved

2. Being saved = desire to do good works

3. The truly saved perform good works

4. Only the truly saved go to heaven

5. To go to heaven, you must perform good works, or be prevented from doing so thru no fault of your own.

wavydaby · February 27, 2007

Opps, I forgot a Point 6 in my rambles

Since translation is an art and not an exact science, I can not take the bible literally.

I can take the bible literally for the point is trying to make however.

And again, in Genesis, it says God created the heavens and earth and all in it in 6 days... later in there it says 1 day.

Do I care howmany days that God took to create us? Nope, not one bit, cause I don't think God has a 24 hr day anyway. Time has no meaning to Him. Do I care that he did create us, you betcha!

Do I think its a sin that I dont care howmany days he took, no.

Are there more examples where I dont take it literally, but only the jist of the text? Yes.

I still say that one can not take the WHOLE bible literally, parts, yes.

Inspired by God, written by Man.

BJean · February 27, 2007

Ron: You're the one who said that doing good works doesn't mean you are saved. You're the one who said that if Carlene's dad was continuing to be a sinner that his salvation was suspect. You're the one who is playing word games. Earlier you said that if a person was saved, they are not going to hell. I don't doubt that her father believed that Jesus was the way, the truth and the light. I don't doubt that her father was saved. I also don't doubt that her family and his church believe that he is now in heaven.

The difference from what you are saying about salvation and being saved, and going to hell and the Southern Baptist Church that I became baptised in, is that my particular Southern Baptist Church said that not only did I have to be "saved" to go to heaven, I also had to be baptised in the Baptist Church to complete my salvation and route to heaven.

If that is true, then there is no way that Carlene, the good Catholic girl, is going to heaven, whether she believes in Jesus and that he died for our sins or not. Which is pretty much what you have posted here, over and over.

However by your standards I am heaven bound because, although I went to the Catholic church for many years and raised my children as Catholics and sent them to Catholic schools, I was baptised in the Baptist Church and was "saved" at church camp when I was around 12. And although I am going to heaven, my Catholic husband (who has the highest moral standards of anyone I have ever met) is going to hell and my beautiful children are going to hell.

Poppycock! I don't believe that there is anyway that you're going to convince me Ron, that my nearly perfect husband is going to hell because he didn't embrace your church's doctrine or your interpretation of the Bible, nor are my incredibly good children going to hell. AND I do not actually think that I have a sure path into heaven because I chose to follow my first husband and be baptisted the Baptist church. Absoutely nothing you have said or anything that the Bible tells us will convince me of that.

I don't know Carlene well, but from the sound of things here I would be willing to say with some certainty that Carlene is far from having a soul committed to hell. I think you are playing word games now so that you don't have to say straight out that you believe that Carlene is bound for hell fire and damnation. Everything that you've posted here previously has pointed to exactly that.

P.S. The reason George Bush's name keeps coming up on this thread is because he has many of the same beliefs that Ron does and his beliefs and his behavior and decisions are impacting the whole of American society. It goes to the core of this argument!