Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

PS - I hope you are not taking this exchange as an attack, because it is not meant to be so. I am just sharing the differences between what you believe as a Catholic and what I now believe as a Bible Believeing Christian.

When I first cam to believe, the first thing I did was go back to my Catholic church, and listen to what was said and taught, and compare it towhat I was reading. I wanted so much to hear these truths from the priests, because I was told I was born a Catholic and I would die a Catholic. When the difference became so apparent it was a matter of good conscience that I left, and it was the hardest, and most important decision I have ever had to make. I did not take it lightly.

These 2 sentences, and yes, I did see your footnote, nevertheless, it is one of the objection to the Creen. The other is even more striking doctrinally -

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We do not believe in baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus came and died to do that, and baptism has nothing to do with forgiving sins. The first century church was almost all Jewish, and baptish came from the Jewish ceremonial cleasing called the 'micver" forgive the spenning - which is what the Temple Priests did before offering the animal sacrifices. In the biblical sense, batpist is an outward sign of an inward change - that of believeing, and is done whan one comes to believe. This of course cannot occur with infants before the age of reason.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

PS - I hope you are not taking this exchange as an attack, because it is not meant to be so. I am just sharing the differences between what you believe as a Catholic and what I now believe as a Bible Believeing Christian.

When I first cam to believe, the first thing I did was go back to my Catholic church, and listen to what was said and taught, and compare it towhat I was reading. I wanted so much to hear these truths from the priests, because I was told I was born a Catholic and I would die a Catholic. When the difference became so apparent it was a matter of good conscience that I left, and it was the hardest, and most important decision I have ever had to make. I did not take it lightly.

You are evading an important aspect of the conversation. If a person follows all of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, can (s)he go to Heaven?

That person would not be following what you belief to be the truth, but is it not enough to have a good heart, believe in Jesus and live as close as you can to His teachings? Or must it be done another way?

[Ron Cusano 0]

To get to heaven, one must trust in Jesus alone for having paid the price for their sins, and accept that free gift from God. If one is trying to earn their way to Heaven, they are coming up short. That is the Gospel in a nutshell. If you as a Catholic believe that you can get to Heaven by your own merit, than you will not get to Heaven. Does that answer you question?

You are evading an important aspect of the conversation. If a person follows all of the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, can (s)he go to Heaven?

That person would not be following what you belief to be the truth, but is it not enough to have a good heart, believe in Jesus and live as close as you can to His teachings? Or must it be done another way?

[Carlene 12]

Of courst, if I happen to die between Saturdays whe they had confession, and had commetted a "mortal" sin, I would go to hell.

That's rubbish and you know it. No priest ever told you that everyone who died on Tuesday was going to hell. BTW....Catholics go to confession maybe once a year now - if that. We are not required to confess anything except mortal sins, and many of us live our entire lives without committing one (adultery, murder, blasphemy, etc).

As a Catholic, I was told my good works and how I lived my live would enable me to earn my way to heaven, while the Bible say's that forgivness of sins and the right to Heaven comes as a free gift from Gos and has nothing to do with my good works.

The Bible says much about performing good works. The Apostle James tells us that faith without good works "is as dead as a body without breath". The Church encourages good works, but never said you could "earn" a place in heaven by good works alone.

Aa Catholic, I was taught that the priest was the mediator between me and God, and that only He could grant me the forgiveness I required through absolution.

No Catholic believes that a priest, no matter how "saintly" he might be, can forgive sins. Only God can do that. You must have slept thru that class.

As a Catholic, I was taught that praying for the dead could have benefit, and praying to Mary and the saints could provide intersession for me to God. The Bible teaches that once you have died, you fate is sealed, and your acceptance or rejection of Jesus is the determining factor. It also teaches that Mary and the saints, like all of us, were sinners in need of forgiveness, and only Jesus makes intersession for Believers before the throne of God.

The Catholic Church, as well as many Protestant churches, does indeed embrace the "communion of saints". We talk to dead people. We ask the saints to pray for us. Sometimes it works. The now-famous prayer of Danny Thomas to St. Jude, patron of lost causes, resulted in St. Jude's Children's Hospital being built. You wouldn't think twice about asking your aunt to pray for you, would you? What's the difference in asking for Aunt Tillie's prayers and asking for St. Theresa's?

As far as The Nicene Creed, Conservative Christian denomination do not subscribe to it. The other Christian mainline church's have become very liberal and have strayed from biblical truth.

They've ALL strayed from "biblical truth"? That's a LOT of people....Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, all members of the Orthodox churches, Anglicans, etc. So....they are all wrong-thinkers, according to you, and only the ultra-conservative (charismatic) churches are right?

[Carlene 12]

These 2 sentences, and yes, I did see your footnote, nevertheless, it is one of the objection to the Creen.

You object to the line "we believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" because of the word "catholic"? Really? That's so anti-intellectual, Ron. The lower case "catholic" simply means "one", or "universal".

Do you also object, on moral grounds, to the use of the term "coke" for either a Coca Cola or any similar soft drink? Why not? We all know that "coke" is synonymous with cocaine, right? Except that Coke, the soft drink, is capitalized and coke the drug, is not. That's how we know whether you are having a Coke or doing some coke.

[Carlene 12]

If you as a Catholic believe that you can get to Heaven by your own merit, than you will not get to Heaven.

I do not know a single Catholic - or Christian, period - who believes he/she can get to heaven by virtue of their own "merit" and nothing more.

...for us men and our salvation ,he came down from heaven...

Remember that? It was written in the 4th century. It is the cornerstone of the Catholic faith.

Now be a good boy and stop telling people that Catholics believe they can (a) buy their way into heaven, or ( earn enough "points" to achieve heaven. And while you're at it, please clear up that silly rumor about the statues.

[Carlene 12]

I am so weary of people who absolutely cannot stand the thought that someone else - someone not affiliated with their church or their interpretation of the Bible - might actually go to heaven, I would just like to SCREAM!

Why do you even CARE? Can't you just go about your me-so-holy way without sermonizing endlessly to the rest of us? Can't you pass up the opportunity, ever, to share your goobered up ideas about what Christ REALLY wants from us? Come on, folks! I don't put down talking in tongues or flopping around on the floor like a fish out of Water, do I? If that's a religious rite in your church, far be it from me to criticize. (After all, who am I to cast stones? My own clergy sometimes wears ridiculous trappings and swings a pot of incense.)

If you believe dancing is sinful, that musical instruments should be banned from the sanctuary, or that the road to hell is paved with broken wine bottles, I've got your back. No matter what your creed, I am willing to acknowledge that there is a very, very good chance that you will get to heaven. I WANT you to ...not on my terms, but on YOURS. Because Christians don't disrespect other Christians.

Now....can I have an amen?

[Ron Cusano 0]

It is not rubbish at all! If I remember correctly, missing church on Sunday or eating meat on Friday, for instance, were considered mortal sins. Mayby the church has changed the rules, but God never changes. If Gods eyes, all sin is enough to seperate us from Him. I that is the case, then answer a question for me. How can your church say that someone can go to Hell for missing mass or eating meat on Friday, and then do an about face, and you don't go to Hell for those offences any more. What about all those folks who died and went to Hell before they changed the rules. Now, THAT is rubbish! Either something is truth or it's not. You can't keep changing truth!

That's rubbish and you know it. No priest ever told you that everyone who died on Tuesday was going to hell. BTW....Catholics go to confession maybe once a year now - if that. We are not required to confess anything except mortal sins, and many of us live our entire lives without committing one (adultery, murder, blasphemy, etc).

The Bible says much about performing good works. The Apostle James tells us that faith without good works "is as dead as a body without breath". The Church encourages good works, but never said you could "earn" a place in heaven by good works alone.

Of course it does, but the good works come from the salvation experience and the inward change. They can not bring about forgiveness of sins or eternal life.

No Catholic believes that a priest, no matter how "saintly" he might be, can forgive sins. Only God can do that. You must have slept thru that class. You don't need a priest's absolution for forgiveness of sin? Is that another change or did you sleep through Absolution 101?? In fact, in a recent column in our local liberal newspaper written by a priest, he made the statement that sin cannot be forgiven withour absolution by a priest. Did the priest sleep through that class also??

The Catholic Church, as well as many Protestant churches, does indeed embrace the "communion of saints". We talk to dead people. We ask the saints to pray for us. Sometimes it works. The now-famous prayer of Danny Thomas to St. Jude, patron of lost causes, resulted in St. Jude's Children's Hospital being built. You wouldn't think twice about asking your aunt to pray for you, would you? What's the difference in asking for Aunt Tillie's prayers and asking for St. Theresa's? For one, Aunt Tille is alive, and St. Theresa is dead! Only Jesus can make intercession for us to the Father. I know of no other Christian church that embraces the teaching that you can "talk to dead people" and ask saints to pray for you!!! How about providing the names of some of these Protestant churches??

They've ALL strayed from "biblical truth"? That's a LOT of people....Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, all members of the Orthodox churches, Anglicans, etc. So....they are all wrong-thinkers, according to you, and only the ultra-conservative (charismatic) churches are right? It is a lot and it is quite true! Jesus said the way to Heaven "is narrow and the way to damnation is very wide!" He also said that in the judgement, "many will say Lord, Lord, and He will answer, begone ye workers of iniquity for I never knew you"! Sadly, there is going to be very many who are going to be very suprised. There are many who are believing wrong doctine and think they are going to Heaven, who are not. By the way, have you ever seen me say anything about being charismatic, which I am not, or Untra-Conservative for that matter??? Where do you get that stuff from??

[Ron Cusano 0]

The problem seems to be that the Catholic churches the rule so often, no one can keep tract any more. Have you ever heard of 'Clinerary Indulgences"?? These were deals where for a certain amount of money, you could buy someone out of Purgatory! OK, that was a while ago?

So, can you have sins forgiven without doing penenance? Without Absolution? Doing penence and going to confession are "works"! How about going to "mass", that is a "work" also. How about baptising your children? Acording to many Catholic funerals I have attended, being baptised, the priest say's, brings you eternal life. More works and your own merit, don't you think?? If you have anything to do with your getting to Heaven, that it's on your own merit. Kind of makes that cornerstone hard to comprehend then!

I do not know a single Catholic - or Christian, period - who believes he/she can get to heaven by virtue of their own "merit" and nothing more. I am sure that YOU do if you believe Catholic dogma!

...for us men and our salvation ,he came down from heaven...

Remember that? It was written in the 4th century. It is the cornerstone of the Catholic faith.

Now be a good boy and stop telling people that Catholics believe they can (a) buy their way into heaven, or ( earn enough "points" to achieve heaven. And while you're at it, please clear up that silly rumor about the statues.

How about you telling me what you think will get you to heaven, and weather that is what your church teaches?

[green 6]

I am so weary of people who absolutely cannot stand the thought that someone else - someone not affiliated with their church or their interpretation of the Bible - might actually go to heaven, I would just like to SCREAM!

Why do you even CARE? Can't you just go about your me-so-holy way without sermonizing endlessly to the rest of us? Can't you pass up the opportunity, ever, to share your goobered up ideas about what Christ REALLY wants from us? Come on, folks! I don't put down talking in tongues or flopping around on the floor like a fish out of Water, do I? If that's a religious rite in your church, far be it from me to criticize. (After all, who am I to cast stones? My own clergy sometimes wears ridiculous trappings and swings a pot of incense.)

If you believe dancing is sinful, that musical instruments should be banned from the sanctuary, or that the road to hell is paved with broken wine bottles, I've got your back. No matter what your creed, I am willing to acknowledge that there is a very, very good chance that you will get to heaven. I WANT you to ...not on my terms, but on YOURS. Because Christians don't disrespect other Christians.

Now....can I have an amen?

Amen from Green.

[Ron Cusano 0]

You asked me what the big differences were between Catholic teaching and Bible teaching and I answered you, but you never responded. I would be interested in knowing how you feel about this.

All that aside, I think the biggest and most important difference is how we deal with the sin and forgiveness issue.

As a Catholic, I was told that Jesus died for my sins, but to have them forgiven and BA able to go to heaven, I had to confess them to a priest and get his absolution. Of courst, if I happen to die between Saturdays whe they had confession, and had commetted a "mortal" sin, I would go to hell.

The Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins, and that believing in who He was, and What he did was all that was required to have salvation.

As a Catholic, I was told my good works and how I lived my live would enable me to earn my way to heaven, while the Bible say's that forgivness of sins and the right to Heaven comes as a free gift from Gos and has nothing to do with my good works.

Aa Catholic, I was taught that the priest was the mediator between me and God, and that only He could grant me the forgiveness I required through absolution. The Bibles teaches that Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God.

As a Catholic, I was taught that praying for the dead could have benefit, and praying to Mary and the saints could provide intersession for me to God. The Bible teaches that once you have died, you fate is sealed, and your acceptance or rejection of Jesus is the determining factor. It also teaches that Mary and the saints, like all of us, were sinners in need of forgiveness, and only Jesus makes intersession for Believers before the throne of God.

There are the important differences that seperate Catholics and other Christian denominations, and that are very vital and eternity changing differences differences. That being said, I know some Catholics who believe this way, aside from Catholic teaching, and who I believe are truly saved.

As far as The Nicene Creed, Conservative Christian denomination do not subscribe to it. The other Christian mainline church's have become very liberal and have strayed from biblical truth.

[Ron Cusano 0]

In between all your screaming, you seem to want to do it your way or make it OK for everyone to do it their own way, and you disregard what Jesus wants. Have you considered that His way may not be Your way??

I am so weary of people who absolutely cannot stand the thought that someone else - someone not affiliated with their church or their interpretation of the Bible - might actually go to heaven, I would just like to SCREAM!

Why do you even CARE? Can't you just go about your me-so-holy way without sermonizing endlessly to the rest of us? Can't you pass up the opportunity, ever, to share your goobered up ideas about what Christ REALLY wants from us? Come on, folks! I don't put down talking in tongues or flopping around on the floor like a fish out of Water, do I? If that's a religious rite in your church, far be it from me to criticize. (After all, who am I to cast stones? My own clergy sometimes wears ridiculous trappings and swings a pot of incense.)

If you believe dancing is sinful, that musical instruments should be banned from the sanctuary, or that the road to hell is paved with broken wine bottles, I've got your back. No matter what your creed, I am willing to acknowledge that there is a very, very good chance that you will get to heaven. I WANT you to ...not on my terms, but on YOURS. Because Christians don't disrespect other Christians.

Now....can I have an amen?

[Carlene 12]

Have you ever heard of 'Clinerary Indulgences"??

No, but I've heard of PLENARY indulgences. For someone who wants to debate Catholicism, you sure don't know much about it.

[Carlene 12]

In between all your screaming, you seem to want to do it your way or make it OK for everyone to do it their own way, and you disregard what Jesus wants. Have you considered that His way may not be Your way??

I absolutely want to make it okay for "everyone to do it their own way". It's their immortal soul. They get to choose how they handle its redemption. And they deserve my respect. Because I am a sinner, too. Because I don't have God's ear, any more than they do....any more than you do.

[green 6]

The problem seems to be that the Catholic churches the rule so often, no one can keep tract any more. Have you ever heard of 'Clinerary Indulgences"?? These were deals where for a certain amount of money, you could buy someone out of Purgatory! OK, that was a while ago?

So, can you have sins forgiven without doing penenance? Without Absolution? Doing penence and going to confession are "works"! How about going to "mass", that is a "work" also. How about baptising your children? Acording to many Catholic funerals I have attended, being baptised, the priest say's, brings you eternal life. More works and your own merit, don't you think?? If you have anything to do with your getting to Heaven, that it's on your own merit. Kind of makes that cornerstone hard to comprehend then!

Why should this really matter to you, Cusano, or to your Christian God? These are only outward frills which vary from sect to sect but the basic demands of the Christian faith are the same: faith in the Trinity and an attempt to live a life that is marked by a sustained attempt to practice good works towards those who are often the least loveable.

Remember that Jesus did hang out with the working class and with prostitutes. Today these individuals might be those who are out of work and on welfare and receiving food stamps. Some of them might be Black or Hispanic. Some of them might be dealing with drug problems.

Do you really think these doctrinal differences actually matter to God or to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit, assuming that this triumvirate actually exists?

Lay off the Catholics! A good Catholic is a good Christian, I would suspect, for the demands of a good Christian are belief and the practice of good works.