Anti-Semitism In France!

[BJean 16]

Amen to the Ann Coulter sell out comment. But I do think you're being too kind.

It's so funny when someone who hasn't been here at all or for a while, reads a lot of this and then seems overwhelmed. I've found that the only way to really enjoy it is to jump right in and parrot back some of the most outlandish things that you read. It is humorous to see them sputter. We really shouldn't take advantage of the less gifted that way though.

The most interesting aspect of this thread is that at one point we all agreed that the Bible could not be interpreted in its' totality, as the literal word of God. Then it all deteriorated again after somebody slept on it.

Whee!

[TommyO 5]

After 30 years all you can come up with is "It's literal when taken in context" a bit of a slow learner, thank goodness you weren't studying biology.

T_O_M when you wrote "A man is best judged by his enemies" I got it

TommyO

[anonemouse 1]

Not at all. I just think joking about executing someone for daring to disagree with the president is much worse then joking about a BJ. That's just me, other's won't agree. I'm OK with that.

I agree with you, Lisah25. I think that comment was the ultimate in bad taste. Joking about sex is taboo, but joking about treason (basically a death sentence) is A-OK? Somethings smells rotten.

[wavydaby 1]

Oh and Ron, as a scientist, you do need to do waaay more research on global warming than to take a non-scientists take that its bunk, other than she spouts the same rhetoric that you believe to be true for Bush.

[lisah25 3]

I agree with you, Lisah25. I think that comment was the ultimate in bad taste. Joking about sex is taboo, but joking about treason (basically a death sentence) is A-OK? Somethings smells rotten.

I've always been a lot more bothered by things like violence presented as entertainment then sex being so.

And in this case, the "treason" is disagreeing with Bush. That scares me.

[sophrosyne 0]

There's someone who doesn't believe in global warming, after living in today's world? Global warming makes all the seasons more extreme. Look at the killer storms in the midwest, the snow in Los Angeles. Last summer, it was 120 degrees in the SHADE at my house, and I live up in the hills, which had always been temperate/cool in the summers. Every year, the weather's getting harsher.

Polar bears are drowning, Egypt is being threatened by rising sea levels, ice caps are melting at an astounding rate.

As far as science goes, it's an admitted fact that the Bush administration has altered scientific reports to further their own agendas and deny global warming.

When the coastal cities are underwater, will you believe in global warming then?

[BJean 16]

Lisa: And I honestly think we should be scared. Some people here think I'm saying that or that TOM is saying things for effect and for the shock value. I promise that I am 100% serious about this. What Bush has been able to pull of during his presidency I would never have thought possible. If he can do these things, how far can he go? What else will we let him take from us? What other atrocities will he commit in the name of freedom and Christianity?

They are deadly serious questions.

The fact that Bush is catering to the extreme right, to some fundamentalist Christians, is such a powerful and frightening tactic, it smacks of McCarthyism and Hitler's tactics. We never thought those men could take advantage of their power and crush people like they did either. Right under honest people's noses.

[BJean 16]

It's interesting this global warming thing. Why would people, scientists, insist that global warming is happening? To line their pockets with gold? To get power over the people?

Why would Bush deny that global warming is a trend? Why? Do any of us need to point that out?

[BJean 16]

sophrosyne: I believe that the Bible can be difficult reading sometimes and confusing, but it has wonderful parables and simple lessons that we can easily apply to our lives each day. If we try to take it too literally, we can miss out on so much.

Do you wonder why some people find it so necessary to define the Bible as literal? I think that it may mean that they are so afraid of dying and hell, and since there are a couple of passages that promise them they will go to heaven no matter what if they follow a couple of the rules explicitly, that they feel insured in a way. It's the only thing that makes sense to me, but if you have a better take on it, I am very interested in knowing it.

[green 6]

Re the above comments, I don't know whether you have been hearing about this American government's practice of extraordinary rendition. This is what they did when they took the Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, and deported him to Syria, a country which does permit torture. The aircraft which was carrying him and a few American officials stopped over in Italy in order to refuel while on its way to Syria.

Well, it seems that the government has practiced extraordinary rendition before with other citizens of western countries who are Muslim and who the government believes to have terrorist connections. They kidnap them and fly them to Islamic countries which do practice torture. Because European soil is involved, either for the kidnappings - the CIA is involved - or as stop-overs while planes are being refueled, the Europeans are now becoming officially engaged in this issue. It seems that they are not amused by these antics!

There has been refueling stop-overs in Sweden, Germany and in the case of Arar, the Canadian who was recently paid 11 million dollars by the Canadian government for damages, in Italy. The Italians are particularly annoyed because a Muslim cleric living in Italy was kidnapped by the CIA and sent to Egypt where he was tortured and sexually abused.

I am reposting my own post and hi-jacking this thread because I wish to respond to Cusano's response to the above. He was outraged that I was seeking to protect terrorists who "behead" other individuals.

Of course I am not, and this is certainly not the point of this post. The issue is one of due process and of following international laws and conventions.

No one likes a terrorist just as no one likes a murderer or a rapist or a child abuser but, nevertheless, all criminals do have the right to due process and access to the civil liberties which are not only enshrined in the American legal process but which are its pride and joy. Indeed, I would argue that among the many fine gifts which the United States has contributed to modern civilisation there is exactly this: meticulous attention to the rights of the accused as balanced against those of society.

Viewed under this lens this covert practice of extraordinary rendition is anti-American. And now, post Arar, it is only going to give a fine nation more bad PR on the international stage. This is not a good thing.:cry

[BJean 16]

Green: I so appreciate your posting this! It is incredibly appropriate and relevant to this discussion.

This is certainly not the only thing that the U.S. has going right now that is bad PR (too nice a term) for us on the international stage.

[green 6]

No, I don't get to decide who a real Christian is . . . God does! That's why He gave is the scriptures, the Holy Spirit to teach us, and Jesus to save us. But, you just go ahead and do it YOUR way!

But it sounds from the tenor of all of your posts that you figure that you are the person who gets to decide. This seems kind of strange to me.

[green 6]

Green: I so appreciate your posting this! It is incredibly appropriate and relevant to this discussion.

This is certainly not the only thing that the U.S. has going right now that is bad PR (too nice a term) for us on the international stage.

Thanks, kiddo.

[Carlene 12]

No, I don't! I believe the Bible is 100% true, accurate and literal in the proper context. If I can't believe and rely on the whole book, I might just as well throw it away, because it's worth then becomes what I choose to make it. That is the difference. You either take the whole package, or leave it. There are ho half measures with scripture.

Ron...

When was the last time you had bacon and eggs?

Leviticus, Chapter 11

1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,

2

"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: Of all land animals these are the ones

you may eat:

3

any animal that has hoofs you may eat, provided it is cloven-footed and chews

the cud.

4

But you shall not eat any of the following that only chew the cud or only have

hoofs: the camel, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is

therefore unclean for you;

5

2 the rock badger, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is

therefore unclean for you;

6

the hare, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is therefore

unclean for you; and the pig,

7

which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud

and is therefore unclean for you.

8

Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they

are unclean for you.

[gadgetlady 4]

Furthermore Ron, just because you didn't SEE Lisa's or wavydaby's, TOM's or my response about your ridiculous claim that we don't base our faith on the Bible, doesn't mean that it wasn't there. Lots and lots of things seem to get misunderstood or ignored by you.

OK, coming in late today, but I missed this response, too.

A WHILE back, I asked the question of those who call themselves Christians but don't believe the Bible is literal. The question I asked, and I'll ask it here again, was: "Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God. Do you believe He was crucified, died, and was resurrected on the third day".

I got two answers that I can remember, both from people who misunderstood the question (ousooner and leatha_g, as I recall); they didn't realize I was qualifying the question to be asked specifically of Christians who don't believe the Bible is literal. I was also specifically told by at least one person (possibly more) that he refused to answer the question and didn't have to explain his beliefs to me. Several ignored the question and at least one (TommyO; there were possibly more) chastised me for suggesting that people should have to answer me (which I never suggested -- I was just amazed that with all of the attacking and pontificating, that no one would answer).

So I'm asking again, because if you answered I didn't see your response. If you profess to be a Christian and do NOT believe the Bible is literal, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He was crucified, died, and was resurrected on the third day?