Anti-Semitism In France!

[BJean 16]

I've been reading most of these posts and I feel I have a pretty good idea of what TOM's views are. I can't understand why you don't, Ron. I'm curious, what is it that you're wanting him to put in print?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Well he is constantly taking me to task about what I believe, the Bible, etc. and when I ask him what he believes and why, he say's he won't say because I might criticize him and try to make him believe like I do. He want to dish it our but not get any in return.

He says he does not believe in the Bible but he is a Christian. So my question is, what does he base his Christian beliefs on then! These are fair questions if he wants to criticize my beliefs. Let's make it a level playing field!

I've been reading most of these posts and I feel I have a pretty good idea of what TOM's views are. I can't understand why you don't, Ron. I'm curious, what is it that you're wanting him to put in print?

[BJean 16]

Well I'm not TOM and not authorized to speak for him, but I can tell you what I think are some of TOM's views. I think he does believe in reading the Bible. I think he attends church and is in fact quite active within his church community. He believes in prayer. He believes that the Bible is not the recorded word of God that should be taken literally. But he does believe that the Bible has many good lessons. He believes that people who think that they have all the answers with regard to the Bible are mistaken. He believes that the Bible and belief in God and Jesus is a personal thing and that God expects us to believe in Him because of our faith that He is the creator, not because we have to go about PROVING anything. Religion is based on faith not science. And I believe that he views that as a good thing, not a bad thing.

I could, of course, be way off track and I welcome his input if he chooses to straighten me out.

Fact is, most of the above is what I also believe. But please don't yell at me Ron, I'm one of the chosen who is not going to hell. You don't have to worry about that on my behalf. I've done all the things you say I need to in order to be welcomed into heaven.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I am certainly not yelling at anyone. If that is what he believes, and I don't know that because he refuses to address it, than my question would be, if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe it is factural, than on what do you base you Christian beliefs on?? This is an honest question! To be a Christian you need to be a followor of Christ. What are you following?

If the Bible can't be believed, put it aside and tell me how you know about Jesus, what He did, who He was, and what exactly you have faith in? It is either based on something or it is baseless? These are valid questions, aren't they?

If you have faith, what do you have faith in and why? The Bible says, "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"! That is what my faith is based on - the Word of God! My question is, what is Tom's and I guess your faith as well, based upon if you believe like Tom does? A faith that is not based on anything is like a fairy tale.

Well I'm not TOM and not authorized to speak for him, but I can tell you what I think are some of TOM's views. I think he does believe in reading the Bible. I think he attends church and is in fact quite active within his church community. He believes in prayer. He believes that the Bible is not the recorded word of God that should be taken literally. But he does believe that the Bible has many good lessons. He believes that people who think that they have all the answers with regard to the Bible are mistaken. He believes that the Bible and belief in God and Jesus is a personal thing and that God expects us to believe in Him because of our faith that He is the creator, not because we have to go about PROVING anything. Religion is based on faith not science. And I believe that he views that as a good thing, not a bad thing.

I could, of course, be way off track and I welcome his input if he chooses to straighten me out.

Fact is, most of the above is what I also believe. But please don't yell at me Ron, I'm one of the chosen who is not going to hell. You don't have to worry about that on my behalf. I've done all the things you say I need to in order to be welcomed into heaven.

[TommyO 5]

From Genesis

The Fourth Day

1:14 God said, 'There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens [and define] festivals, days and years.

1:15 They shall be lights in the heavenly sky, to shine on the earth.' It happened.

1:16 God [thus] made the two large lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. [He also made] the stars.

1:17 God placed them in the heavenly sky to shine on the earth,

1:18 to rule by day and by night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. God saw that it was good.

1:19 It was evening and it was morning, a fourth day.

I am always curious how Days 1 - 3 happened with out a sun. Did God not know that the sun was the reason for the light? There are many passages in the bible when taken literally make it impossible to believe.

I believe that those who take the bible as a literal document often do so because they need to. I can think of two reasons that this would happen:

1. Because they tend to be black and white thinkers and are afraid of the grey,

uncertainty can be very unerving for black and white thinkers.

2. Because they need to know that they will get to heaven, they are afraid of

death but because they have done bad things in the past that would exclude

them and it is important that they can prove that they have a chance.

That is why they are okay with Carlene's grand Daughter's freind going to hell because it's allows them access. By way of example, a murderer becomes saved and turns His/Her life over to Jesus. In their hearts they are always concerned that they will go to hell no matter what changes they make. But the bible tells them this is not so and they will get to heaven. It is important that the bible be a literal document or there is always lingering doubt. So even if it means a 14 year old child goes to hell for no sane reason, as long as they get into heaven it's worth it.

I have met many "Born Again" Christians, many of them were good people who had decided to turn their lives over to God. Many others however were bad people who had become reformed and they often were the most unbending in their interpretation of scripture. As matter of fact most of them were often all or nothing people, one day they were dealing drugs and the next day they were wittnessing for the lord. Either way when you didn't buy their Drugs or their religion they became very upset.

Finally I think Bjean mentioned how odd the word proof appears and I agree but it is also one of my favorite words. Most people understand it to mean "to verify" but Proof also means to test as in "100 proof Vodka" or "proof read". With that in mind the word prove also has both meanings and because most people no longer use the word proof in the test context any more, a very important saying in todays society is still used but incorrectly.

The saying --- "It's the exception that proves the rule" somehow people think that this saying verifys a rule even when an exception is found. It is actually better wriiten " It's the exception that Proofs the rule" meaning the exception tests the rule. Rules have a purpose but sometimes they may not apply, it is at these times we are required to think for ourselves and formulate our own opinions. Once again the black and white thinkers are not good at this as they prefer to go by the rule book no matter how wrong it may be.

It would seem that it is easy to misinterpret anything and I guess that is why we have judges for our societal rule book

Cheers to all, you could say that in this thread we prove nothing and everything at the same time

TommyO

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Still waiting for you post what you believe and why before I pay any attention to your other posts. If you want to criticize you should be willing to be honest about your own views, otherwise, like I said, it just sounds like so much hot air to me.

Still waiting for you to learn to say, "In my opinion", "I don't see it that way", "my understanding of the Bible is that...", "according to my faith", "I have faith that..." or any one of many other ways of saying what you want to be heard by other members without putting anyone down.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Has it dawned on you the the lights in the heavens in days 1-3 were the stars????

From Genesis

The Fourth Day

1:14 God said, 'There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens [and define] festivals, days and years.

1:15 They shall be lights in the heavenly sky, to shine on the earth.' It happened.

1:16 God [thus] made the two large lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. [He also made] the stars.

1:17 God placed them in the heavenly sky to shine on the earth,

1:18 to rule by day and by night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. God saw that it was good.

1:19 It was evening and it was morning, a fourth day.

I am always curious how Days 1 - 3 happened with out a sun. Did God not know that the sun was the reason for the light? There are many passages in the bible when taken literally make it impossible to believe.

I believe that those who take the bible as a literal document often do so because they need to. I can think of two reasons that this would happen:

1. Because they tend to be black and white thinkers and are afraid of the grey,

uncertainty can be very unerving for black and white thinkers.

2. Because they need to know that they will get to heaven, they are afraid of

death but because they have done bad things in the past that would exclude

them and it is important that they can prove that they have a chance.

That is why they are okay with Carlene's grand Daughter's freind going to hell because it's allows them access. By way of example, a murderer becomes saved and turns His/Her life over to Jesus. In their hearts they are always concerned that they will go to hell no matter what changes they make. But the bible tells them this is not so and they will get to heaven. It is important that the bible be a literal document or there is always lingering doubt. So even if it means a 14 year old child goes to hell for no sane reason, as long as they get into heaven it's worth it.

I have met many "Born Again" Christians, many of them were good people who had decided to turn their lives over to God. Many others however were bad people who had become reformed and they often were the most unbending in their interpretation of scripture. As matter of fact most of them were often all or nothing people, one day they were dealing drugs and the next day they were wittnessing for the lord. Either way when you didn't buy their Drugs or their religion they became very upset.

Finally I think Bjean mentioned how odd the word proof appears and I agree but it is also one of my favorite words. Most people understand it to mean "to verify" but Proof also means to test as in "100 proof Vodka" or "proof read". With that in mind the word prove also has both meanings and because most people no longer use the word proof in the test context any more, a very important saying in todays society is still used but incorrectly.

The saying --- "It's the exception that proves the rule" somehow people think that this saying verifys a rule even when an exception is found. It is actually better wriiten " It's the exception that Proofs the rule" meaning the exception tests the rule. Rules have a purpose but sometimes they may not apply, it is at these times we are required to think for ourselves and formulate our own opinions. Once again the black and white thinkers are not good at this as they prefer to go by the rule book no matter how wrong it may be.

It would seem that it is easy to misinterpret anything and I guess that is why we have judges for our societal rule book

Cheers to all, you could say that in this thread we prove nothing and everything at the same time

All of the above is your opinion which you are entitled to. I was just wondering how you know what Christians motives and thoughts are, since you are not one? Are you guessing or just imagining? I guess you think the moon is made out of green cheese and reindeer fly, but as I said, you are entitled to your opinion. Hey, I could just as well speculate that you are an athiest because you are afraid of God or just want to lead a godless life, and that would also be useless speculation, because I don't know, just like you don't know.

TommyO

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Well I'm not TOM and not authorized to speak for him, but I can tell you what I think are some of TOM's views. I think he does believe in reading the Bible. I think he attends church and is in fact quite active within his church community. He believes in prayer. He believes that the Bible is not the recorded word of God that should be taken literally. But he does believe that the Bible has many good lessons. He believes that people who think that they have all the answers with regard to the Bible are mistaken. He believes that the Bible and belief in God and Jesus is a personal thing and that God expects us to believe in Him because of our faith that He is the creator, not because we have to go about PROVING anything. Religion is based on faith not science. And I believe that he views that as a good thing, not a bad thing.

I could, of course, be way off track and I welcome his input if he chooses to straighten me out.

Fact is, most of the above is what I also believe. But please don't yell at me Ron, I'm one of the chosen who is not going to hell. You don't have to worry about that on my behalf. I've done all the things you say I need to in order to be welcomed into heaven.

You are faily accurate.

The reason I will not dicuss any more that I have faith in Jesus with Ron, is because I have watched him pick apart anyone that does not agree with his interpretation of scriptures 110%. Knowing that I believe in Jesus and knowing that I believe that Jesus can save me from my sins is not good enouigh for Ron, but it will have to be.

I have never asked Ron to change his beliefs of what the Bible says or means. I have asked him to admit that his "knowing" is actually faith. I have asked him to stop condemning other people's beliefs, to which he answers, that he doesn't do it, scriptures do it.

I will be 62 years old in 6 weeks. Ron is already 62. He does not have to ack like we are two kindergarten children.

If he will not exchange ideas with me, then all I can say is "No one is more blind that one who will not see".

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I am certainly not yelling at anyone. If that is what he believes, and I don't know that because he refuses to address it, than my question would be, if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God and don't believe it is factural, than on what do you base you Christian beliefs on?? This is an honest question! To be a Christian you need to be a followor of Christ. What are you following?

If the Bible can't be believed, put it aside and tell me how you know about Jesus, what He did, who He was, and what exactly you have faith in? It is either based on something or it is baseless? These are valid questions, aren't they?

If you have faith, what do you have faith in and why? The Bible says, "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God"! That is what my faith is based on - the Word of God! My question is, what is Tom's and I guess your faith as well, based upon if you believe like Tom does? A faith that is not based on anything is like a fairy tale.

See, this is exactly my point. Believing in Jesus is not good enough for Ron. He has to know why I believe in Jesus.

Only Jesus has to know why I believe in him, Ron.

I know Jesus, Jesus is a friend of mine and you are not Jesus.

[Ron Cusano 0]

And that coming from the "KING OF PUT DOWN"!! Hello! Have you read your own posts! You have got to be kidding, right??

Still waiting for you to learn to say, "In my opinion", "I don't see it that way", "my understanding of the Bible is that...", "according to my faith", "I have faith that..." or any one of many other ways of saying what you want to be heard by other members without putting anyone down.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Has it dawned on you the the lights in the heavens in days 1-3 were the stars????

The stars don't control the day and night on Earth. the Sun controls day and night.

1:14 God said, 'There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens [and define] festivals, days and years.

1:15 They shall be lights in the heavenly sky, to shine on the earth.' It happened.

1:16 God [thus] made the two large lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the smaller light to rule the night. [He also made] the stars.

1:17 God placed them in the heavenly sky to shine on the earth,

1:18 to rule by day and by night, and to divide between the light and the darkness. God saw that it was good.

1:19 It was evening and it was morning, a fourth day.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Hey Pal! You want toknow ehy and how I believe what I do so you can criticize, you don't want to be on the receiving end, right.

You say you believe in Jesus! Which Jesus? Certainly not the Jesus of the Bible. Is it the Jesus you made up to be anything you want him to be? If you can question me, why can't I question you??

See, this is exactly my point. Believing in Jesus is not good enough for Ron. He has to know why I believe in Jesus.

Only Jesus has to know why I believe in him, Ron.

I know Jesus, Jesus is a friend of mine and you are not Jesus.

[BJean 16]

Ron: To answer your question, I have one word for you that is all important: FAITH

Just because someone doesn't interpret the Bible to be the exact word of God, or because one doesn't believe that the Bible should be taken literally, does not mean that they can't have faith in the Bible or in God.

Just because it is necessary for you to believe that the Bible is literal, doesn't mean that it is necessary for everyone. TommyO made some excellent points about that.

Not all of us have to have proof that we are not going to hell. Some of us just believe that we are not going to hell because we believe in the love of God and because we have faith that our good works and our love for God, ourselves and mankind will be sufficient reasons for us to be allowed to grace God's presence in heaven.

Besides there are too many inconsistencies in the Bible and the Bible has been passed through too many hands and been translated too many times for anyone to have no shadow of a doubt that it didn't change some in the process.

[BJean 16]

Ron your last 2 posts seems to be yelling.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I am not asking you to change your beliefs, just explain the if you can!

You are faily accurate.

The reason I will not dicuss any more that I have faith in Jesus with Ron, is because I have watched him pick apart anyone that does not agree with his interpretation of scriptures 110%. Knowing that I believe in Jesus and knowing that I believe that Jesus can save me from my sins is not good enouigh for Ron, but it will have to be. How do you know Jesus can save you from your sins if you don't believe the biblical account? What do you base it on??? How can you believe in something without something to believe in?

I have never asked Ron to change his beliefs of what the Bible says or means. I have asked him to admit that his "knowing" is actually faith. I have asked him to stop condemning other people's beliefs, to which he answers, that he doesn't do it, scriptures do it.

I will be 62 years old in 6 weeks. Ron is already 62. He does not have to ack like we are two kindergarten children.

If he will not exchange ideas with me, then all I can say is "No one is more blind that one who will not see". I am the one doing all the "exchanging" while you are doing all the complaining! What have YOU exchanged?? You don't answer question, just cry about Bush and social issues!! Get real will you![/quote]