Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

I think the answer to everything you just wrote about why some laws are built upon a biblical foundation and others are not is because people in thei country are from every mindset and belief, and everyone gets to vote. That is what a democracy is all about. We do not have state mandated religion.

It doesn't matter what is sin to you or to me, what matters is what's sin to God!

Which brings me back to a statement I made looong ago in this post.

Divorce is bad in the bible. Divorce is legal in this country.

Why arent the right wingers forcing stricter divorce laws?

Because its based on a biblical belief.

Adultery is no more wrong than Homosexuality according to the bible.

IF we want one law that is based on the bible, we must fight for them all.

Which in a free society is WRONG.

Just because God thinks its bad, we can not enforce those laws upon our society.

I know God doesnt like divorce, I know God doesnt like ANY sin.

BUT what is a sin to me is NOT a sin in other religions or to non-religious folks.

Just because we make it legal in this country to do something, does not mean that as a God-believing person, Im gonna run right out there and do it.

I still have my principals and my God to answer to.

The fact remains that some people dont feel they have a God to answer to and they have rights as well.

The right to marry and the right to divorce.

And if we had laws to prevent me from leaving him legally, I would have fought that tooth and nail.

Just as God forgives sinners. I think he forgives stupid mistakes too.

And no matter what our laws allow or dont allow, HE expects us to obey Him.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I also respect everyone even if I disagree with them in many areas, including athiests and those of all religions. I think you are gravely mistaken, and the way is indeed very narrow, as Jesus said. And yes, He did die for all of us, but only for those who accept His free gift of salvation. No, there are no fences in Heaven, and the New Testament only recognizes two types of peoples - Believers and Non-Believers. There is nothing in between!

Ron....(and all)

I'm going to go walk my dog now. Thanks for all the stimulating conversation. I will be back later.

For the record, I just want to say that I respect all religions and beliefs. I respect Atheists, too. In general, I have found them to be highly intelligent people - thus their drive to question and to look for proof what the rest of us sit back and accept on faith.

I believe that there is room in heaven for all who want to go there. And even though the Bible says "narrow is the way", I think it's not as narrow as some people's minds.

Jesus did not die for Catholics, for Baptists, for Methodists, or LDS members. He died for ALL of us - so that our sins might be forgiven. Let's don't be making him build a bunch of fences in heaven so some of us won't be disappointed to know the others got there!

[lisah25 3]

I think the answer to everything you just wrote about why some laws are built upon a biblical foundation and others are not is because people in thei country are from every mindset and belief, and everyone gets to vote. That is what a democracy is all about. We do not have state mandated religion.

Two thoughts about that. One, if there are enough people to vote in some laws based on the Bible, why aren't there enough to vote in all of them? And more important, why do I not hear anywhere near the converstation about some of them as I do about gay marriage?

[Wheetsin 714]

We all inherit the sin of Adan and Eve and are therefore sinners from the womb. Sin is not mearly an act, it is a condition, but God has provided a a way out through salvation.

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

[ousooner 1]

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

Wheetsin - that is a very fair question My beleif and the way I understand it to be is that judgement is not passed on those who have not reached the age of accountabilty. For some, that means a certain age. For me, I beleive that to mean when you reach an age that you have the capacity to comprehend and either accept or reject Jesus. It would also apply to those with mental handicaps that don't allow then to comprehend. Hope that helps.

[Wheetsin 714]

Thanks, ousooner. That's something I've always had a hard time grasping. We are inherently sinners, but only held accountable for our sins (in some teachings) once we reach a point of accountability. But obviously that could vary person to person. And as you mentioned, there are some who may never get there due to mental disabilites. And there are people on our earth for whom it's entirely possible to live a complete life, or at least complete to the point of accountability, and never hear of Jesus or god in any form. What of them? Can they be held spiritually accountable for not seeking salvation if they don't know it exists? Or if "the word" has never gotten to them?

[Ron Cusano 0]

I am not sure I have the answer to that but my feeling is that at one point, most of the laws were based upon a biblical foundation, but as liberalism has changed the American political landscape, laws contrary to scriptural principals have been voted in. I also think that the gay marriage issue is a hot button with non-liberal Christians, and even some liberal Christians so it is in the forefront. I am not a politicial so these are stictly my opinion.

Two thoughts about that. One, if there are enough people to vote in some laws based on the Bible, why aren't there enough to vote in all of them? And more important, why do I not hear anywhere near the converstation about some of them as I do about gay marriage?

[Ron Cusano 0]

I happen to agree with you on this, although this is an area that is not addressed specificially in scripture. But knowing that God is just, this seems to be in harmony with the nature of God.

Wheetsin - that is a very fair question My beleif and the way I understand it to be is that judgement is not passed on those who have not reached the age of accountabilty. For some, that means a certain age. For me, I beleive that to mean when you reach an age that you have the capacity to comprehend and either accept or reject Jesus. It would also apply to those with mental handicaps that don't allow then to comprehend. Hope that helps.

[lisah25 3]

I am not sure I have the answer to that but my feeling is that at one point, most of the laws were based upon a biblical foundation, but as liberalism has changed the American political landscape, laws contrary to scriptural principals have been voted in. I also think that the gay marriage issue is a hot button with non-liberal Christians, and even some liberal Christians so it is in the forefront. I am not a politicial so these are stictly my opinion.

I've never understood why homosexuality is such an issue for so many, when the Bible doesn't make a distinction that one sin is worse then another. I do have a theory, but it's just that, my theory.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Wheetsin,

I agree completely with Ousooner on the issue of children and mentally handicaped, so I would alike to address you question about those who live in primitive areas and have never had a chance to heat the Gospel.

While those areas are now very few and far between, it is a valid issue. We are told in Romans that God makes himself know through creation itself, so that everyone is "without excuse" before a holy God. The Bible also say's that "to whom much is given, much is required" which implys that to whom receives less, less is required. My understading is the God reveals Himself to all people, including those in primitive areas and cultures, and they are help accountable for their sin to the extent that they have been privy to the knowledge of the Lord.

Thanks, ousooner. That's something I've always had a hard time grasping. We are inherently sinners, but only held accountable for our sins (in some teachings) once we reach a point of accountability. But obviously that could vary person to person. And as you mentioned, there are some who may never get there due to mental disabilites. And there are people on our earth for whom it's entirely possible to live a complete life, or at least complete to the point of accountability, and never hear of Jesus or god in any form. What of them? Can they be held spiritually accountable for not seeking salvation if they don't know it exists? Or if "the word" has never gotten to them?

[Ron Cusano 0]

All sin is sin before God and seperates us from Him. But homosexuality is called an abomination by God and is aalso a sin against nature. It also defiles the marriage covenant which is something that is very precious to God. So precious that he describes his relationship to His church as a marriage.

I've never understood why homosexuality is such an issue for so many, when the Bible doesn't make a distinction that one sin is worse then another. I do have a theory, but it's just that, my theory.

[Wheetsin 714]

While those areas are now very few and far between, it is a valid issue. We are told in Romans that God makes himself know through creation itself, so that everyone is "without excuse" before a holy God. The Bible also say's that "to whom much is given, much is required" which implys that to whom receives less, less is required. My understading is the God reveals Himself to all people, including those in primitive areas and cultures, and they are help accountable for their sin to the extent that they have been privy to the knowledge of the Lord.

Then let's focus on "sin" for a second. Let's say these remote people somehow "should" know about god. How could they know what is or is not sin if they have no bible (or ability to read)? Murder, cannibalism, incest, rape, homosexuality, adultery, etc. are not sins in their culture, they are part of every day life and often integrated into their version of a justice system. How are they held accountable for their sin when they have no concept of sin? And how is their sin defined, when sin is largely a cultural context - given they have no record of how sin is defined biblically?

[marjon9 6]

So if they are automatically guilty of sin upon...conception, let's say (or insert state between conception and sentient life here) what happens to the fetus that dies in utero? Or during birth? Or say for the first few hours of life spent in the NICU, before being allowed visitors, let alone any means of salvation? Are they sent to hell by virtue of physically not being able to seek salvation?

This type of question always brings to mind similar issues, like what about all those people for the last two thousand years that never heard of Christ? Will they burn in hell for eternity? This type of argument in every religious environment is why I rejected organized religion when I was about 12 years old. Every religion says they are the only "right" way and everyone else shall burn. Everyone has their own little man-made document that they claim is the word of God, and of course that document tells them that everyone else is wrong.

When I try to contemplate the Universe I see something that is such a marvel I can't help but imagine that there must be some sort of design or purpose involved. I'm open to the possibility that there is some sort of larger guiding force in the Universe. But it also seems obvious that if such a guiding force does exist, such an entity would exist on a level far beyond anything a mere human could even begin to comprehend.

Here we are, living out our lives on a tiny speck of land, circling a sun that is light years from the closest other sun, in a universe filled with more suns than the human mind can comprehend, where distances between things are also far behond anything that we humans can comprehend. Our minds are incapable of imaninging how it started, we are similarly unable to imagine its boundaries, and we can't imagine when it will end, if it will end, or even what it would mean if it did end.

Yet we are somehow able to convince ourselves that God has singled out a small group of us here on this tiny planet, and offered us a way to go to heaven (whatever that is), but has excluded all the other perfectly good human beings and sentenced them to damnation (even if they are without fault because they never even heard of the one "true" religion). And of course, this is the same thing that is believed by every other group of humans, who also thinks they have been singled out, has the only "right" way, leaving all other groups to damnation.

I just don't get it, folks. In a sense I wish I did because it seems to bring comfort to a lot of people. But I cannot take seriously a planet full of little tribes, each of which is convinced that its religion is the only "right" one, and that everyone else will burn. I understand that most of us were taught to believe this type of thing. But does there ever come a time when we, as thinking entities, just take a step back and think this through for ourselves?

[lisah25 3]

Yet we are somehow able to convince ourselves that God has singled out a small group of us here on this tiny planet, and offered us a way to go to heaven (whatever that is), but has excluded all the other perfectly good human beings and sentenced them to damnation (even if they are without fault because they never even heard of the one "true" religion). And of course, this is the same thing that is believed by every other group of humans, who also thinks they have been singled out, has the only "right" way, leaving all other groups to damnation.

This is one of the things I've struggled most with. I still don't have a perfect answer, but I'm starting to believe that God goes by many names, and there are many paths to Him.

Yes, I realize that's not the usual Biblical stance.

[Ron Cusano 0]

THis is not addressed specificially in scripture except to the extent that I just mentioned. What I am going to say now is my opinion as opposed to scriptural - We are all edowed with a conscience, and I have to believe that it is a matter of conscience to know certain things are sin or wrong, such as murder, canibalism and stealing. The Bible does teach that certain things are sin to us if we believe they are sin. On that basis, the most grevious acts would be sin, although they would not know the terminology, because in their conscience they know it is wrong. And there would be certain behaviours that we would consider sin today based upon scripture, that because of their culture and conscience, I don't believe it would be held against them.

Again, this is one of very few areas that are not addrssed specifically in scripture, so we need to trust God that He is just and righteous.

Then let's focus on "sin" for a second. Let's say these remote people somehow "should" know about god. How could they know what is or is not sin if they have no bible (or ability to read)? Murder, cannibalism, incest, rape, homosexuality, adultery, etc. are not sins in their culture, they are part of every day life and often integrated into their version of a justice system. How are they held accountable for their sin when they have no concept of sin? And how is their sin defined, when sin is largely a cultural context - given they have no record of how sin is defined biblically?