Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

With all due respect, you obviously do not have a grasp of the whole of scripture or you could not even make those remarks. Not knowing the reason for the Mosiac Law, the coming of the Messiah to fulfill that Law, and His role in redemption under the New Covenant is not knowing who Jesus really was and is. You may want to consider actually studying and learning the scriptures so you can understand tham instead of picking a nd choosing verses, usually out of context, to try to make a case that can't be made.

Archolological finds, including the Dead Sea Scrolls have substanciated that todays Bibles are 100% accuarate compared to the oldest known manuscripts that date back BC.

My point is that the Bible has been translated, interpreted, reinterpreted, translated again - all by human beings subject to error and personal belief and the conventions of their time - to the point that nobody knows what the original manuscripts may have said.

First of all, there's the Old Testament. It's part of the Bible. But according to those who interpret it literally, the Old Testament doesn't apply to them. Then what's it doing in an "infallible" rule book for the human race? Why bother with it at all? Maybe because we don't want to follow all those dietary laws. But we like the Ten Commandments, so we'll keep them. And the story of creation, of course.

Then there are the New Testament passages that don't support a lot of Christian beliefs. Divorce? Not allowed, per the New Testament. Anyone in your church been divorced, Ron? How about slavery? "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior." (Titus 2:9-10)

There is, of course, much more. Women must cover their heads when they pray. Men must not grow their hair long (but women should). Wives are to be submissive and women are prohibited from being "teachers" (ministers).

"If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out". (A good part of America would soon be blind.)

"If thine hand offends thee, cut it off". (And one-handed.)

And don't give me that lame old argument about "context". Either the Bible is literally, completely, true or it isn't.

[Ron Cusano 0]

And this coming from a man who doesn't have to sincerity to even explain what he believes, while tearing apart others beliefs.

You know, I debate, argue and disagree with a lot of people on this thread, but I respect them because that at least have the guts to say what they believe and why they believe it. You have a lot of unsupported opinion and blow a lot of hot air, but don't the the guts to put yourself out there with your beliefs. You are so transparent. Why then should I or anyone take anything you have to say seriously??

Just for the record, I do KNOW that without Jesus you will go to Hell, because Jesus said so, the Bible said so, and I believe it. Now why don't you tell us why you disagree and on what basis, and what you believe!! Do you have the guts???

What reasons to you have for your belief that BuSh is sincere? Because he is a self-professed Christian?

No, you think that without trusting Jesus as your sin offering, you will go to HELL!

You do not know it. Because some book says it, doesn't mean it is true. I have faith it is true and so do you, but you confuse faith with knowledge.

[Carlene 12]

As fas as anyone going to Hell; I KNOW that without trusting Jesus as your sin offering, you will go to HELL!

I think we established waaaaaaay back in this thread that all of us, as Christians, believe that Christ died for our sins. No one here has argued that point with you. We are perfectly willing to acknowledge that you have the same chance of going to heaven as we do, no matter what group's name is on the church house door. But you don't really believe that the rest of us are worthy of heaven, do you, Ron? Because we are Catholic, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or some other denomination that does not embrace your fundamentalist ideas. And that's where we differ. We practice tolerance and you preach exclusion.

I believe, and Jesus taught, that all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ. If you want to Celebrate communion with grape juice instead of wine, go for it. That won't keep you out of heaven.

If you don't make the sign of the cross, fast during Lent, pray the Rosary, or genuflect before the alter, that's okay. None of that will stop you from going to heaven.

I don't speak in tongues, but if you do, that's cool. Speaking in tongues won't exclude you from heaven.

If your church ordains women, more power to them. You can receive the good news of the Lord from a woman and still go to heaven.

Do you get my drift, Ron? If the blood of Christ is the key to heaven, then we are all saved. Baptists go to heaven. So do Disciples of Christ, Presbyterians, Episcopalians....and even Catholics. And if you don't get that, or you refuse to acknowledge it, then you sir are not living a Christ-like life.

[missy4gordon 0]

George Bush does not decide who dies on death row, quote]

When George Bush was governor of Texas he DID decide who died on death row. He did not commute one single death sentence during his time in office, by the way.

Hmmm....silly me, I thought it was the Judicial System that decided who went to death row, to be executed.....Just because he didn't grant any stays, doesn't mean he decided who died there, that was the jury of our peers.....

Oh, and the people of the State of Texas voted for Mr. Bush to be able to have that power, like it or not.

[BJean 16]

Obviously some of us haven't heard Dubya tell us all that he's the "decider." Oops. Wait a minute, these last elections didn't exactly come off as he planned. He's back peddling a little... but just a touch... just enough to keep himself from being thrown out on his ear.

[missy4gordon 0]

Obviously some of us haven't heard Dubya tell us all that he's the "decider."

Oops, my bad. I was unaware that they no longer used the Judicial System in Texas since "Dubya" took over as the decider.

[Carlene 12]

My parents were divorced when I was very young. My mother came from an Irish Catholic family and my father was Southern Baptist. I even had an uncle who was a fire and brimstone preacher. On weekend visits with my dad, I was duly exposed to Baptist theology. The only part I really minded was when they bad-mouthed other religions - and Catholics in particular. And they never got tired of pointing out that my mother, my saintly grandmother, and practically everyone else I loved (as well as myself) were all going to hell. Not because we didn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but because we were members of the Catholic Church.

My mother was an unbelievably pious woman. She raised two children by herself, with virtually no help from my dad. She did not smoke, drink, swear, or fornicate. My father did all those things, and more. He was an alcoholic - a binge drinker who shirked responsibility and made no attempt to live a Christian life. He drank himself to death at 55 and was buried, of course, by his family - many of whom I had not seen for years. They all assured me that my father was in heaven, because he had been "saved" at a tent revival one summer night when he was about 12 years old.

Now, according to my good Baptist relatives, my mom will burn in hell for not abandoning the faith into which she was born and raised. The faith she PRACTICED for almost 80 years. My father, on the other hand, will walk on streets paved with gold, while basking in God's eternal love in heaven. He will not hunger or thirst. He will not know sickness or despair. Because he was "saved", and once saved, always saved. So say the Baptists.

In retrospect, maybe I should have converted when I had the chance. It would have been so much easier than being a Catholic. My father almost never set foot inside a church, once he reached adulthood. I, on the other hand, have wasted countless hours on my knees in prayer and penance. I volunteered in Soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and food pantries. My dad drank and danced his nights away in bars filled with smoke and easy women.

I raised four children to respect their elders, love their God, and obey the 10 Commandments. My father didn't raise his children - we just grew up.

But if you ask the Baptist side of my family, I'm still going to hell. And my deadbeat dad is still bound for glory. I don't think so. Somewhere in the Bible it says God is just. I'm counting on that.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Charlene,

The gospel in a nutshell is "John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have eternal life". If you believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and did what he claimed to do, they you will go to heaven, regardless of any denomination distinction.

The problem lies in understanding "who Jesus was and what he did"! The waters get a little muddied here what you introduce having to do certain things - "works" - to earn heaven, or look to other means for forgiveness of sin - "comfession, penence, absolution, etc.

The fact of the matter is, NONE of us are WORTHY of heaven. We are all worthy of Hell, but by the grace of God alone, Heaven is made available to us through the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

The reason it is so important to understand the scriptures is because this is where the real understanding of who he was and what he did comes from. Anything aside from the scriptures is only tradation, opinion and heresay, which means nothing because is constantly changes.

I believe that there are those from all denominations that truly believe, bgut in doing so, are believing in opposition to the official teachings of certain denominations. Many denominational teachings are just wrong when given the test of scripture, nevertheless, I believe there are many who are truly saved within their ranks, no thanks to the wrong teachings.

My "Conservative" position mearly means that by foundation for my belief system is the scriptures alone, and that then mean exactly what they say taken in the proper context. It is not a matter of better or worse, it's a matter of true or false.

I think we established waaaaaaay back in this thread that all of us, as Christians, believe that Christ died for our sins. No one here has argued that point with you. We are perfectly willing to acknowledge that you have the same chance of going to heaven as we do, no matter what group's name is on the church house door. But you don't really believe that the rest of us are worthy of heaven, do you, Ron? Because we are Catholic, or Methodist, or Lutheran, or some other denomination that does not embrace your fundamentalist ideas. And that's where we differ. We practice tolerance and you preach exclusion.

I believe, and Jesus taught, that all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ. If you want to Celebrate communion with grape juice instead of wine, go for it. That won't keep you out of heaven.

If you don't make the sign of the cross, fast during Lent, pray the Rosary, or genuflect before the alter, that's okay. None of that will stop you from going to heaven.

I don't speak in tongues, but if you do, that's cool. Speaking in tongues won't exclude you from heaven.

If your church ordains women, more power to them. You can receive the good news of the Lord from a woman and still go to heaven.

Do you get my drift, Ron? If the blood of Christ is the key to heaven, then we are all saved. Baptists go to heaven. So do Disciples of Christ, Presbyterians, Episcopalians....and even Catholics. And if you don't get that, or you refuse to acknowledge it, then you sir are not living a Christ-like life.

[wavydaby 1]

I have entirely too many posts in my head so I am going to make points, possibly to the simple reader as basically random.

1. Strong's Con. (abrvd) This dictionary of ancient words is very nice. I understand what it is. At first I did not. I have looked at 3 editions of this book, an old one a friend had, one at books a Million and one online.

What you are not seeing that I have said is that it reads like a thesaurus.

What has been translated in many many instances is, bear with me, "xyz word" is more of a phrase and this is the basic single word or phrase or context that you can mean in english. My point being is that I can take ANY phrase in ANY bible and it will translate CORRECTLY by using the standards of translations. HENCE, the bible that you read and the bible that I read, are saying the same thing in slightly different words, that WE as a people use and skew the definitions words of on a daily basis.

For example: (NOT out of the bible)

I say, "hand me a fag"

You hear something along the lines that I want you to "pass me a gay man."

An English person may hear, "give me a cigarette"

Someone else may hear "pass me a stick"

What did I mean?

Pass me a stick.

How could you have understood? Well, you have to know the context.

In three hundred years from now, Someone in outer space says, "this was funny, she wanted him to pass her a branch."

Is that wrong? I say no. A branch not on a tree is a stick. A stick on the ground was once a branch.

Point I am making thru a rambling triad of words?

Translation of words and context are important. HOWEVER, translation is not perfect, no matter who is doing it. It is an art.

Point 2: It is still not resonating with me correctly when you say things like, " I read many bibles" or "show me a prodistant church that only uses the KJV". I say again, WHY??? If you can not understand what one bible says, that makes the non-understandable bible obsolete. Use a diffferent one. Are you comparing the verses out of one to another to get what you want out of them??? For example, one bible uses "females" and the other uses "women" so you use the verse that says "women" in it so mean to exclude "minor female children".

Point 3: Carlene, you are a better speaker than I am. So for many of the things that I want to say, I say, "Yeah! what you said"

Point 4: Can we leave BuSh out of this? I do not like the man nor his politics, however, can we stay on talking about the real God, and not someone who think he has God's ear? (snicker)

Point 5: No matter how many times yousay I am putting a twist on your words Ron, you still think that I am gonna go to hell, EVEN though, I have accepted the one and only Jesus Christ as my savior and still go to a Catholic Church, while trying not to do bad things on a daily basis and occasionally confessing my sins to a priest and doing some "our Fathers" and "Hail Mary's"

*End Rambling*

[Ron Cusano 0]

Charlene,

Just belonging to a church or claiming to be a Believer does not make you a Believer. Jesus said, "you their fruits you shall know that thay are mine"! You father, while climing to be a Believer, obviously did not display the fruits of a regenerated life. On the other hand, your Mom, while belonging to a Church that I believe has serious doctrinal problems, may very well have had saving faith. My wife was like that. She came to a saving faith while still in the Catholic church, but left after a time because she couldn't remain in good conscience.

I can understand your feelings aqnd resentments, but keep your eyes on the Word of God and not on people. People will alsways disapoint you, but God never will.

My parents were divorced when I was very young. My mother came from an Irish Catholic family and my father was Southern Baptist. I even had an uncle who was a fire and brimstone preacher. On weekend visits with my dad, I was duly exposed to Baptist theology. The only part I really minded was when they bad-mouthed other religions - and Catholics in particular. And they never got tired of pointing out that my mother, my saintly grandmother, and practically everyone else I loved (as well as myself) were all going to hell. Not because we didn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but because we were members of the Catholic Church.

My mother was an unbelievably pious woman. She raised two children by herself, with virtually no help from my dad. She did not smoke, drink, swear, or fornicate. My father did all those things, and more. He was an alcoholic - a binge drinker who shirked responsibility and made no attempt to live a Christian life. He drank himself to death at 55 and was buried, of course, by his family - many of whom I had not seen for years. They all assured me that my father was in heaven, because he had been "saved" at a tent revival one summer night when he was about 12 years old.

Now, according to my good Baptist relatives, my mom will burn in hell for not abandoning the faith into which she was born and raised. The faith she PRACTICED for almost 80 years. My father, on the other hand, will walk on streets paved with gold, while basking in God's eternal love in heaven. He will not hunger or thirst. He will not know sickness or despair. Because he was "saved", and once saved, always saved. So say the Baptists.

In retrospect, maybe I should have converted when I had the chance. It would have been so much easier than being a Catholic. My father almost never set foot inside a church, once he reached adulthood. I, on the other hand, have wasted countless hours on my knees in prayer and penance. I volunteered in Soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and food pantries. My dad drank and danced his nights away in bars filled with smoke and easy women.

I raised four children to respect their elders, love their God, and obey the 10 Commandments. My father didn't raise his children - we just grew up.

But if you ask the Baptist side of my family, I'm still going to hell. And my deadbeat dad is still bound for glory. I don't think so. Somewhere in the Bible it says God is just. I'm counting on that.

[Devana 0]

I wish I had a spell checker built in to this forum.

T_O_M, install a google toolbar. It has a dandy little spell check that works with forums.

[Carlene 12]

Charlene,

The gospel in a nutshell is "John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have eternal life". If you believe Jesus was who he claimed to be and did what he claimed to do, they you will go to heaven, regardless of any denomination distinction.

The problem lies in understanding "who Jesus was and what he did"! The waters get a little muddied here what you introduce having to do certain things - "works" - to earn heaven, or look to other means for forgiveness of sin - "comfession, penence, absolution, etc.

The fact of the matter is, NONE of us are WORTHY of heaven. We are all worthy of Hell, but by the grace of God alone, Heaven is made available to us through the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

The reason it is so important to understand the scriptures is because this is where the real understanding of who he was and what he did comes from. Anything aside from the scriptures is only tradation, opinion and heresay, which means nothing because is constantly changes.

I believe that there are those from all denominations that truly believe, bgut in doing so, are believing in opposition to the official teachings of certain denominations. Many denominational teachings are just wrong when given the test of scripture, nevertheless, I believe there are many who are truly saved within their ranks, no thanks to the wrong teachings.

My "Conservative" position mearly means that by foundation for my belief system is the scriptures alone, and that then mean exactly what they say taken in the proper context. It is not a matter of better or worse, it's a matter of true or false.

You still don't get it, do you,Ron? To say that I MIGHT go to heaven in spite of my Catholic beliefs is unbelievably arrogant. And so NOT what Jesus would do.

PS.....could you please stop calling me "Charlene"? Thanks.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Point 1 - I agree with you completely!!

I have entirely too many posts in my head so I am going to make points, possibly to the simple reader as basically random.

1. Strong's Con. (abrvd) This dictionary of ancient words is very nice. I understand what it is. At first I did not. I have looked at 3 editions of this book, an old one a friend had, one at Books a Million and one online.

What you are not seeing that I have said is that it reads like a thesaurus.

What has been translated in many many instances is, bear with me, "xyz word" is more of a phrase and this is the basic single word or phrase or context that you can mean in english. My point being is that I can take ANY phrase in ANY bible and it will translate CORRECTLY by using the standards of translations. HENCE, the bible that you read and the bible that I read, are saying the same thing in slightly different words, that WE as a people use and skew the definitions words of on a daily basis.

For example: (NOT out of the bible)

I say, "hand me a fag"

You hear something along the lines that I want you to "pass me a gay man."

An English person may hear, "give me a cigarette"

Someone else may hear "pass me a stick"

What did I mean?

Pass me a stick.

How could you have understood? Well, you have to know the context.

In three hundred years from now, Someone in outer space says, "this was funny, she wanted him to pass her a branch."

Is that wrong? I say no. A branch not on a tree is a stick. A stick on the ground was once a branch.

Point I am making thru a rambling triad of words?

Translation of words and context are important. HOWEVER, translation is not perfect, no matter who is doing it. It is an art.

Point 2: It is still not resonating with me correctly when you say things like, " I read many bibles" or "show me a prodistant church that only uses the KJV". I say again, WHY??? If you can not understand what one bible says, that makes the non-understandable bible obsolete. Use a diffferent one. Are you comparing the verses out of one to another to get what you want out of them??? For example, one bible uses "females" and the other uses "women" so you use the verse that says "women" in it so mean to exclude "minor female children". I use several Bibles for reference because each uses "wording" differently, just as you explained with your unbderstand of the need for the Strong's Concordance. For instance, the KJV will say something using "thee's and thou's", while the NASV uses todays English. I don't look for difference meaning, becausae there are no different meanings. I use them to clarify things for my understanding.

Point 3: Carlene, you are a better speaker than I am. So for many of the things that I want to say, I say, "Yeah! what you said"

Point 4: Can we leave BuSh out of this? I do not like the man nor his politics, however, can we stay on talking about the real God, and not someone who think he has God's ear? (snicker)

Point 5: No matter how many times yousay I am putting a twist on your words Ron, you still think that I am gonna go to hell, EVEN though, I have accepted the one and only Jesus Christ as my savior and still go to a Catholic Church, while trying not to do bad things on a daily basis and occasionally confessing my sins to a priest and doing some "our Fathers" and "Hail Mary's" I don't care what church you go to, if you accept Jesus as you offering for sin, and Him alone, you will go to Heaven. As I explained to Charlene, if you are releying of a priest to absolve you of your sin, penence or good works to earn you forgiveness, they you muddy the waters, and are not trusting Jesus alone. You are trustin yourself and others to help get you to Heaven. It is not a matter of what church, but what you believe.

*End Rambling*

[Carlene 12]

Charlene,

Just belonging to a church or claiming to be a Believer does not make you a Believer. Jesus said, "you their fruits you shall know that thay are mine"! You father, while climing to be a Believer, obviously did not display the fruits of a regenerated life.

That differs a LOT from what you said several pages ago.

The Bible teaches the doctrine of "eternal security" which means once you come to believe and receive salvation, it is impossile to lose it. It is never determined by doing good works.

Edited to add...

Gee...that sounds a lot like "good works" to me... "By their fruits you shall know that they are mine."

[Ron Cusano 0]

It doesen't differ at all. If you REALLY coem to Believe, the Holy Spirit indwells you and you are changed. It's a gradualy, growing change, but you are never the same. The fruits, or good works are the indication that the change is happening within you. Once you truly believe, nothing can pluck you out of the Lords hands.

That differs a LOT from what you said several pages ago.