Anti-Semitism In France!

[TommyO 5]

Ron, I must agree with Carlene in the sentence you refer it in no way to says or implies what you are suggesting. You are taking a big leap here claiming that the Catholic church say's one thing when they quite obviously do not.

Once again you make a statement that seems absolute but in reality your interpretation of the words are incorrect. You seem to have the ability to intepret these words in a biased manner for the purpose of backing up your position.

It would appear that you are able to let your biases interfere with your objectivity. I can't help but wonder how this has affected your ability to intepret other writings.

[Ron Cusano 0]

With the excepting of dividing into chapter and verse, and splitting into different volumns, the content is exact in todays Old Testament. I suspect the reference given about additional material is a reference to the Catholic Bible.

My misistry involves preaching the Gospel to the Jews and a big part of that is sitting down with some ( including Rabbi's), Bibles in hand (the Tenach and the Christian Old testament), and never have I seen a difference in text or content. I have studied under several Jewish scholars, most of which were fluent in Hebrew, and were experts in the Tenach, and they also never saw any difference in text. Therefore, I think you are reading the intent of this reference incorrectly.

Are you saying that everyone EXCEPT the Catholic Church - Jews and "the rest of the Christian community" - are in agreement as to what writings are "inspired"? Because if that's what you're saying, you're wrong. I have cut and pasted below a reference from the Jewish Online Library, for your scholarly edification.

Though the word "Bible" is commonly used by non-Jews -- as are the terms "Old Testament" and "New Testament" -- the appropriate term to use for the Hebrew scriptures ("scripture" is a synonym used by both Jews and non-Jews) is Tanakh. This word is derived from the Hebrew letters of its three components:

Torah: The books of Genesis (Bereshit), Exodus (Shemot), Leviticus (Vayikrah), Numbers (Bamidbar) and Deuteronomy (Devarim).

Nevi'im (Prophets): The Books of Joshua, Judges, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habukkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. (The last twelve are sometimes grouped together as "Trei Asar" ["Twelve"].)

Ketuvim (Writings): The Books of Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel (although not all that is included in the Christian Canon), Ezra and Nehemiah, I Chronicles, and II Chronicles.

It should be noted that the breaking of Samuel (Shmuel), Kings (Melachim) and Chronicles (Divrei hayamim) into two parts is strictly an artifact of the Christian printers who first issued the books. They were too big to be issued as single volumes. Because every one followed these de facto standards, the titles of Volume 1 and Volume 2 were attached to the names. The division of the Tanakh into chapters was also done by medieval Christians, and only later adopted by Jews.

Also, many Christian Bibles have expanded versions of several of these books (Ester, Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Chronicles) including extra material that is not accepted as canonical in Judaism. This extra material was part of the ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh, but was never a part of the official Hebrew Tanakh. Jews regard the additional material as apocryphal. Among Christians, there is a difference of opinion. Catholics regard this material as canonical, while many Protestant sects regard this material as Apocrypha. What is and is not regarded as Apocrypha varies among the many Christian sects.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Tanakh.html

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I want to thank all those that expressed their feelings about my family's problems this year.

I just got back from the airport. Because of the JetBlu fiasco of last week and the fact that JetBlu cancelled all its flight for 4 or 5 days, there is a huge backlog of people trying to fly on all airlines. I could not get out to NY directly, so I took a flight to NC, but then could not make the connection to NY. I stayed overnight in NC but still could not get out, so I came back to Florida. I wanted to be with Tina, but it will be impossible.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Tom,

I too feel terrible for you with the problems your family is experiencing. My pray is that you will experience peace and get through these times.

Ron

I want to thank all those that expressed their feelings about my family's problems this year.

I just got back from the airport. Because of the JetBlu fiasco of last week and the fact that JetBlu cancelled all its flight for 4 or 5 days, there is a huge backlog of people trying to fly on all airlines. I could not get out to NY directly, so I took a flight to NC, but then could not make the connection to NY. I stayed overnight in NC but still could not get out, so I came back to Florida. I wanted to be with Tina, but it will be impossible.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Tom,

The following is what I just posted back to Charlene about this. Please read it . . .

You are putting words in my mouth! I never said the Catholic church found the books to be uninspired. The Catholic church does consider them to be inspired. Jewish theologians and theoligians from all other Christian denominations I am aware of consider these books not to be inspired.

Ron, I must agree with Carlene in the sentence you refer it in no way to says or implies what you are suggesting. You are taking a big leap here claiming that the Catholic church say's one thing when they quite obviously do not.

Once again you make a statement that seems absolute but in reality your interpretation of the words are incorrect. You seem to have the ability to intepret these words in a biased manner for the purpose of backing up your position.

It would appear that you are able to let your biases interfere with your objectivity. I can't help but wonder how this has affected your ability to intepret other writings.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

If it hadn't been for Luther, all Christians might be called Roman Catholics today.

If it had not been for Constantine, the church might still be a mostly Jewish church!!

That might have been a good thing. Maybe today's Christians would not be acting like Romans, sending troops to Muslim countries and killing and maiming. Maybe today's Christians would have been more involved with the Beatitutes than with the politics of the USA. Maybe there would have been no inquisition, no Salam Witch Hunt, no Crusades.

And maybe this thread would not be about putting down everyone's religion but your own.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Do you remember something called "The Crusades" or the "Inquision"? In case you have not noticed, I have not put down any specific religion. I have discussed and disagreed with doctronal issues, and Biblical understandings, but have never put down any religion. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE!

That might have been a good thing. Maybe today's Christians would not be acting like Romans, sending troops to Muslim countries and killing and maiming. Maybe today's Christians would have been more involved with the Beatitutes than with the politics of the USA. Maybe there would have been no inquisition, no Salam Witch Hunt, no Crusades.

And maybe this thread would not be about putting down everyone's religion but your own.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Do you remember something called "The Crusades" or the "Inquision"? In case you have not noticed, I have not put down any specific religion. I have discussed and disagreed with doctronal issues, and Biblical understandings, but have never put down any religion. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE!

I will assume that you wrote what you meant to write.

Of course I remember “The Crusades” and “The Inquisition”. I just mentioned them.

Of course you have put down religions. You are in the middle of a debate now with Carlene and TommyO about the Catholic religion right now. You are too clever to say that the Roman Catholic religion is phony, but you imply it. You have mentioned you left the Roman Catholic religion. Are we to assume you left it to go to a religion that was worse? No, the implication is that you left it to go to a religion that is better.

Better or worse? Implications are some religions are inferior and if they are inferior, can they get a follower into Heaven? Of course, I know that these are not your opinions, you are just quoting scripture which is interpreted by scripture. Or you are quoting what theologians have said, but when other members quote theologians, then those theologians are wrong.

You need to win, just like the Roman Empire's army needed to win. Constantine may have proliferated Christianity, but I doubt he did it any favor. I can take a quart of 100% orange juice and and add 9 quarts of Water and sell it as “Orange Aid”, but just think how much I would have to drink to get the benefits of one glass of the real thing.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

One more thing.

Look me in the (cyber) eye and tell me that you believe that Christian denominations that do not believe in the literal Bible are as good as your religion.

If you can not say that, then you are putting down other religions.

Oh, and you did put down Islam and the Qur'an way back about 124 pages ago in this thread.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Tommy, can't we discuss without the sarcasm?

I will assume that you wrote what you meant to write.

Of course I remember “The Crusades” and “The Inquisition”. I just mentioned them.

Of course you have put down religions. You are in the middle of a debate now with Carlene and TommyO about the Catholic religion right now. You are too clever to say that the Roman Catholic religion is phony, but you imply it. You have mentioned you left the Roman Catholic religion. Are we to assume you left it to go to a religion that was worse? No, the implication is that you left it to go to a religion that is better.

We are talking about beliefs and dogma of the Catholic faith, of which I was one part of. We are not talking about better or worse, but about what we believe to be true. I tried not to discuss any specific religion, but someone asked me some very sincere questions and we had and will continue to have a nice, civil discussion without any put-downs hopefully, and perhaps agree to disagree. This is not a war as you seem to imply.

Better or worse? Implications are some religions are inferior and if they are inferior, can they get a follower into Heaven? Of course, I know that these are not your opinions, you are just quoting scripture which is interpreted by scripture. Or you are quoting what theologians have said, but when other members quote theologians, then those theologians are wrong. They are not just opinions, they are BELIEFS! What I am writing is in answer to why I believe what I believe. This is called discussion and debate. It is not an attack. Can't you understand that?

You need to win, just like the Roman Empire's army needed to win. Constantine may have proliferated Christianity, but I doubt he did it any favor. I can take a quart of 100% orange juice and and add 9 quarts of Water and sell it as “Orange Aid”, but just think how much I would have to drink to get the benefits of one glass of the real thing.

I don't need to win, but for me to change my beliefs of opinions, I need real strong evidence, just as anyone else would. And I agree with you that Constantine did a big disservice to the faith when he declared it to be the state religion, partly because he only did it for political reasons. And yes, the Crusades and the Inquisition were horrors where Catholicism was forced upon the Jews under threat of death or financial ruin, and caused a lot of pain and seperation. Unfortunately, they are not the only such examples, which is why some people have the virw of Christianity that they have. Fortunately, real Christians don't take up arms and force people into embracing something they don't believe in.

[Ron Cusano 0]

It is not a matter of "Good" or "Bad", I believe them to be in error. They are sincere, but I believe they are sincerely wrong. Do I believe that all religion is right and all paths lead to God, absolutely not! That is not putting anyone down. It is disagreeing with their beliefs.

One more thing.

Look me in the (cyber) eye and tell me that you believe that Christian denominations that do not believe in the literal Bible are as good as your religion.

If you can not say that, then you are putting down other religions.

Oh, and you did put down Islam and the Qur'an way back about 124 pages ago in this thread.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Tommy, can't we discuss without the sarcasm?

TommyO is a member of LBT.

Tired_Old_Man is another member of LBT.

Some people refer to TommyO as Tommy or Tom.

Some people refer to Tired_Old_Man as TOM or T_O_M.

Nobody refers to Tired_Old_Man as Tommy (until now).

[Ron Cusano 0]

I am sorry if that offended you. It was not intended to.

TommyO is a member of LBT.

Tired_Old_Man is another member of LBT.

Some people refer to TommyO as Tommy or Tom.

Some people refer to Tired_Old_Man as TOM or T_O_M.

Nobody refers to Tired_Old_Man as Tommy (until now).

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Tommy, can't we discuss without the sarcasm?

It was not meant to be sarcasm (although I can see how it might be taken that way). It was meant to skip one step, by anticipating the next response (as in chess).

Ron, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you have no ill intent, but then I have to tell you that I feel that no matter how kindly your intent is, that you are subconsciously (benefit of the doubt again) putting down everyone's religion but your own version.

You continually flip-flop between literal and "what that means is".

I said many pages ago, that my relationship with Christ might be better than those who need to have proof of the deeds of Jesus and the Bible being literal, because I am doing it on faith and since when isn't faith enough? I was not putting anyone down. I was making a case for the possible multitude of viable viewpoints toward religion and how one sees God. I do not know if all types of Christians (including roman Catholics) will gain salvation, or all types of Jews or all types of Muslims, or members of any other types of religions or anyone at all. I even broached the concept that maybe God initiated many varied religions to test faith and that He might have told each group that only that group's way was the right way. God may have done that to make it harder to gain salvation. Maybe, if everyone believed in the same ideas, there would be no challenge to man.

No, I do not have scriptures to back that up. I have a mind, a God given mind (I believe) that allows me to question myself and my surroundings and to think, but never to know.

I know that I think.

You think that you know.

Neither one of us really knows what God has in mind for us. We can hope and have faith, but we can really never know.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I am sorry if that offended you. It was not intended to.

No offense taken. Just setting the record straight.

TommyO might be pissed off though.:faint: