Anti-Semitism In France!

[BJean 16]

Wheetsin: All we need is love. And boy is that demonstrated here. I would love to have Jesus log on and see what is being presented in the name of the Bible here. The condesension, the hatefulness, the venom. It is sickening. You could be entirely without emotion about this topic and get sick to your stomach after reading much of this. I know why we keep butting our heads against the proverbial wall, but even though it will never infuse some of us with love and respect for one another, it is enlightening in so many ways. I appreciate your post. My heart goes out to Rev. White.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

New Testament

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Yes, I want you to show me where it talks about treatment of slaves in the New Testament. The word slave is only used once in the entire New Testament, in the Book of Revelations, and mentions nothing about treatment or ownership. Have you ever even read the Bible??

The word slave has been changed to servent in many of the modern translations of the New Testament. But the meaning is the same.

Wrong! Nobody is "creating a law against homosexuality"! We already have laws against same sex marriage. They are fighting for a Constitional Amendment to make the law a Federal Law mandatory upon all the states.

The 14 amendment says, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

If Tina loves Freddie and Freddie loves Tina, and they both are over 18, Tina can marry Freddie by (any) state('s) law.

If Robert loves Bill and Bill loves Robert, and they both are over 18, Bill can not marry Robert by (any) state('s) law.

If Joan loves Jane and Jane loves Joan, and they both are over 18, Joan can not marry Jane by (any) state('s) law.

That violates the underlined statement of the 14th amendment which precludes Tina and Freddie from having more protection under the law than Bill and Robert or Jane and Joan do under the laws of the states.

That is why the Republicans (with the backing of the Christian Right Political Movement) are trying to pass a constitution amendment against same gender marriage.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye have love one to another" John 13:34,35.

Student, 16, Finds Allies in His Fight Over Religion

By PATRICK McGEEHAN

NEWARK, Feb. 19 — A Kearny High School junior on Monday drew some legal heavyweights into his battle with school officials over a teacher’s proselytizing in class.

The American Civil Liberties Union, the People for the American Way Foundation and a partner from a large Manhattan law firm stood beside the student, Matthew LaClair, as he and his family threatened to sue the Kearny Board of Education if their complaints are not resolved. Last fall, Matthew, 16, taped the teacher, David Paszkiewicz, telling students in a history class that if they do not believe that Jesus died for their sins, they “belong in hell.”

On the recordings, which Matthew made surreptitiously starting in September, Mr. Paszkiewicz is heard telling the class that there were dinosaurs aboard Noah’s ark and that there is no scientific basis for evolution or the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe.

Since Matthew turned over the tapes to school officials, his family and supporters said, he has been the target of harassment and a death threat from fellow students and “retaliation” by school officials who have treated him, not the teacher, as the problem. The retaliation, they say, includes the district’s policy banning students from recording what is said in class without a teacher’s permission and officials’ refusal to punish students who have harassed Matthew.

Matthew and his parents, Paul and Debra LaClair, are demanding an apology to Matthew and public correction of some of Mr. Paszkiewicz’s statements in class.

The LaClairs filed a torts claim notice on Feb. 13 against the school board, Mr. Paszkiewicz and other school officials. Such a claim is required before a lawsuit can be filed in New Jersey. “The school created a climate in which the students in the school community held resentment for Matthew,” said Deborah Jacobs, executive director of the A.C.L.U. in New Jersey. She said Kearny High School had “violated the spirit and the letter of freedom of religion and the First Amendment.”

Ms. Jacobs added that the A.C.L.U. would support the LaClairs if they sue the school board and might join the action.

Richard Mancino, a partner with Willkie Farr & Gallagher, which is representing the family, said he did not understand why school officials would not “stand up for this student, who had the guts to raise this constitutional issue.” Instead, Mr. Mancino said, they appear “to have adopted a shoot-the-messenger policy.”

Angelo J. Genova, a lawyer in Livingston, N.J., who is representing the school board, said Kearny school officials had addressed Matthew’s complaints and had reaffirmed their commitment to the separation of church and state in the classroom.

Bernadette McDonald, president of the school board, said in a statement: “We took his concerns very seriously. The result was that we have received no further complaints about such religious proselytization in our schools.”

Mr. Genova said the school board had hired Edwin H. Stier, who was director of the New Jersey Division of Criminal Justice from 1977 to 1982, to independently investigate Matthew’s harassment allegations.

For his part, Matthew said he recognized that “there are going to be a lot of consequences” at school from the Monday news conference. He said he had already felt hostility from students after the school switched his history class from Mr. Paszkiewicz to another teacher.

The district would not disclose what action it had taken against Mr. Paszkiewicz, who is teaching the same course to a different group of students. He has taught in the district for 14 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/20/n...65b3&ei=5087%0A

[rtgirl77 0]

Hi all, I've really enjoyed the lively debate in this thread. First off, Laurend, congrats to you for sharing a very candid assessment of your journey thus far in what has, I'm sure, at times felt like enemy territory. I think that took a lot of courage and maturity to discuss things in such an honest way. If you are still interested in learning with an open mind, you might try the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This is a very enlightening book, written by an atheist who went in search of facts to disprove Jesus as Messiah.

I, myself, am a Christian. My beliefs are very similar to Ron's, however, my approach may be different. Our Bible teaches us to go out and spread the gospel to all ends of the earth. Sometimes, we forget that people still have free will and can reject our truth. We are also taught to reject the "every man for himself" attitude in favor of looking out for others. But again, there is a difference between being responsible to and being responsible FOR. I am responsible to myself and to God to share my faith but I'm not responsible for others' decisions. With that said, I believe Jesus wants me to do everything within my power to make sure that everyone who hasn't heard the story of Jesus, is informed. Unfortunately, sometimes that means asking questions. I'll admit its something I'm not good at. I've always been quite shy about discussing my faith. A lot of it is out of fear of being thought a "fanatic" or "freak" but I've come to not really care as much. I also don't want to offend or be offended. I don't want to be thought a hypocrite because I do things sometimes that I'm not proud of. I'm far from perfect. Jesus commands his people to be like him but all of us fall so short and most of us end up being about as far from being like Jesus as we could possibly be. But, luckily, we don't have to be perfect. That's what salvation is.

I would ask that all of us, try to be more tolerant. I would say that so many things are done and said in Jesus' name that I don't believe he would ever endorse. God gave us the ability to decipher right from wrong and deeming a behavior to be wrong does not make one a biggot. We are supposed to decide right from wrong and to run from such behaviors. However, God has never advocated HATING anyone, not people of other races and not gays, murderers, rapists, or thieves. If Jesus hadn't mingled with the dregs of society, he wouldn't have been able to reach the lost. Jesus never acted like he was better than anyone else. Jesus was poor. He was willing to speak to poor people, rich people, sick people, well people, atheists and believers. He loved them ALL. If we are to be like Jesus, so should we. That is hard for us as earthly beings because our first instinct is to create an us vs. them environment but that creates distrust and anger among the masses.

I don't proclaim to know all the answers or to even be able to explain every verse in the Bible. I know what God has done in my life and that is what I can share with those who want to know. I know what is expected of me by my God and I'm not even close to fulfilling it but I do try. I believe that all of this is set and that what will be, will be. I do have questions but I refuse to let those questions interfere with my faith. I don't want to be left standing here when God comes back and destroys the earth. I saw a bumper sticker once that said "If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right" and it really resonated with me. If there is no God, and I believe there is and I conduct my life in love and in faith, I've lost nothing. But if there is a God, and I don't believe, I'm in real trouble one day!

Just my thoughts.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Hi all, I've really enjoyed the lively debate in this thread. First off, Laurend, congrats to you for sharing a very candid assessment of your journey thus far in what has, I'm sure, at times felt like enemy territory. I think that took a lot of courage and maturity to discuss things in such an honest way. If you are still interested in learning with an open mind, you might try the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This is a very enlightening book, written by an atheist who went in search of facts to disprove Jesus as Messiah.

I, myself, am a Christian. My beliefs are very similar to Ron's, however, my approach may be different. Our Bible teaches us to go out and spread the gospel to all ends of the earth. Sometimes, we forget that people still have free will and can reject our truth. We are also taught to reject the "every man for himself" attitude in favor of looking out for others. But again, there is a difference between being responsible to and being responsible FOR. I am responsible to myself and to God to share my faith but I'm not responsible for others' decisions. With that said, I believe Jesus wants me to do everything within my power to make sure that everyone who hasn't heard the story of Jesus, is informed. Unfortunately, sometimes that means asking questions. I'll admit its something I'm not good at. I've always been quite shy about discussing my faith. A lot of it is out of fear of being thought a "fanatic" or "freak" but I've come to not really care as much. I also don't want to offend or be offended. I don't want to be thought a hypocrite because I do things sometimes that I'm not proud of. I'm far from perfect. Jesus commands his people to be like him but all of us fall so short and most of us end up being about as far from being like Jesus as we could possibly be. But, luckily, we don't have to be perfect. That's what salvation is.

I would ask that all of us, try to be more tolerant. I would say that so many things are done and said in Jesus' name that I don't believe he would ever endorse. God gave us the ability to decipher right from wrong and deeming a behavior to be wrong does not make one a biggot. We are supposed to decide right from wrong and to run from such behaviors. However, God has never advocated HATING anyone, not people of other races and not gays, murderers, rapists, or thieves. If Jesus hadn't mingled with the dregs of society, he wouldn't have been able to reach the lost. Jesus never acted like he was better than anyone else. Jesus was poor. He was willing to speak to poor people, rich people, sick people, well people, atheists and believers. He loved them ALL. If we are to be like Jesus, so should we. That is hard for us as earthly beings because our first instinct is to create an us vs. them environment but that creates distrust and anger among the masses.

I don't proclaim to know all the answers or to even be able to explain every verse in the Bible. I know what God has done in my life and that is what I can share with those who want to know. I know what is expected of me by my God and I'm not even close to fulfilling it but I do try. I believe that all of this is set and that what will be, will be. I do have questions but I refuse to let those questions interfere with my faith. I don't want to be left standing here when God comes back and destroys the earth. I saw a bumper sticker once that said "If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right" and it really resonated with me. If there is no God, and I believe there is and I conduct my life in love and in faith, I've lost nothing. But if there is a God, and I don't believe, I'm in real trouble one day!

Just my thoughts.

That was a very nice post. You will not be belittled or held in contempt for being a freak or fanatic here. Many other Christians, both Conservative and Liberal, have debated with Ron as have atheists and agnostics. Ron has brought together every stripe of human life (of the LBT members who post here) except for a few, but not in fellowship, but against his pushiness and self-righteousness. Even some members who normally lean toward his side have pushed back from his statements. Self-described Conservative Christians have found fault with Ron's demeanor.

Maybe if Ron had posted the Beatitudes of Jesus instead of his Christian Right approach, he would have brought us together in a spirit of love for him, rather than a war against his technique.

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,

for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,

for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Gospel of Matthew 5:3-10

[BJean 16]

rtgirl77: I apologize to everyone for allowing myself to lose control and insult someone here. However if it provoked your post rtgirl77, I am glad that something so sweet and beautiful came of it.

Thank you TOM for your posts. Once again they touch my heart and speak for me much better than I can.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Wrong! It was changed to servant because it is a more literal translation, and the role of a servant was much different that that of a slave.

The word slave has been changed to servent in many of the modern translations of the New Testament. But the meaning is the same.

The 14 amendment says, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

If Tina loves Freddie and Freddie loves Tina, and they both are over 18, Tina can marry Freddie by (any) state('s) law.

If Robert loves Bill and Robert loves Bill, and they both are over 18, Bill can not marry Robert by (any) state('s) law.

If Joan loves Jane and Jane loves Joan, and they both are over 18, Joan can not marry Jane by (any) state('s) law.

That violates the underlined statement of the 14th amendment which precludes Tina and Freddie from having more protection under the law than Bill and Robert or Jane and Joan do under the laws of the states.

That is why the Republicans (with the backing of the Christian Right Political Movement) are trying to pass a constitution amendment against same gender marriage.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Wrong! It was changed to servant because it is a more literal translation, and the role of a servant was much different that that of a slave.

Not according to scholars who read the bible in the language it was written in. Or should I say interpret the bible from the language it was written in?

BTW, how come you did not address the example I gave about why judges have ruled that man-woman marriage laws are invalid because of the 14th amendment?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Man-Woman only marriages are the law in a large and growing number of states so it is obviously has not been determinded to be against the 14th amendment, has it?

Not according to scholars who read the bible in the language it was written in. Or should I say interpret the bible from the language it was written in?

BTW, how come you did not address the example I gave about why judges have ruled that man-woman marriage laws are invalid because of the 14th amendment?

[Ron Cusano 0]

That was a beautiful post! I just want ot share with you that I to believe it is everyones right and responsibility to accept or reject the Gospel, and that I cannot force anyone to believe. All that I have been doing here is sharing from a theological perspective what the Bible says. Most of the people who have be part of the discussions have been athiests or liberal Christians who do not take the scriptures literally, therefore these dicsussions tend to get lively. They are understanding my firm stand on what the Bible says to be arrogant and self imposing. It is anything but. I am only taking a stand for what the inspired Word of God actually says aside from anyones personal feelings or opinions. In the end, all are free to either accept or reject what the Bible has to say. My personal opinion is of no consequence. Blessings!

Hi all, I've really enjoyed the lively debate in this thread. First off, Laurend, congrats to you for sharing a very candid assessment of your journey thus far in what has, I'm sure, at times felt like enemy territory. I think that took a lot of courage and maturity to discuss things in such an honest way. If you are still interested in learning with an open mind, you might try the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This is a very enlightening book, written by an atheist who went in search of facts to disprove Jesus as Messiah.

I, myself, am a Christian. My beliefs are very similar to Ron's, however, my approach may be different. Our Bible teaches us to go out and spread the gospel to all ends of the earth. Sometimes, we forget that people still have free will and can reject our truth. We are also taught to reject the "every man for himself" attitude in favor of looking out for others. But again, there is a difference between being responsible to and being responsible FOR. I am responsible to myself and to God to share my faith but I'm not responsible for others' decisions. With that said, I believe Jesus wants me to do everything within my power to make sure that everyone who hasn't heard the story of Jesus, is informed. Unfortunately, sometimes that means asking questions. I'll admit its something I'm not good at. I've always been quite shy about discussing my faith. A lot of it is out of fear of being thought a "fanatic" or "freak" but I've come to not really care as much. I also don't want to offend or be offended. I don't want to be thought a hypocrite because I do things sometimes that I'm not proud of. I'm far from perfect. Jesus commands his people to be like him but all of us fall so short and most of us end up being about as far from being like Jesus as we could possibly be. But, luckily, we don't have to be perfect. That's what salvation is.

I would ask that all of us, try to be more tolerant. I would say that so many things are done and said in Jesus' name that I don't believe he would ever endorse. God gave us the ability to decipher right from wrong and deeming a behavior to be wrong does not make one a biggot. We are supposed to decide right from wrong and to run from such behaviors. However, God has never advocated HATING anyone, not people of other races and not gays, murderers, rapists, or thieves. If Jesus hadn't mingled with the dregs of society, he wouldn't have been able to reach the lost. Jesus never acted like he was better than anyone else. Jesus was poor. He was willing to speak to poor people, rich people, sick people, well people, atheists and believers. He loved them ALL. If we are to be like Jesus, so should we. That is hard for us as earthly beings because our first instinct is to create an us vs. them environment but that creates distrust and anger among the masses.

I don't proclaim to know all the answers or to even be able to explain every verse in the Bible. I know what God has done in my life and that is what I can share with those who want to know. I know what is expected of me by my God and I'm not even close to fulfilling it but I do try. I believe that all of this is set and that what will be, will be. I do have questions but I refuse to let those questions interfere with my faith. I don't want to be left standing here when God comes back and destroys the earth. I saw a bumper sticker once that said "If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right" and it really resonated with me. If there is no God, and I believe there is and I conduct my life in love and in faith, I've lost nothing. But if there is a God, and I don't believe, I'm in real trouble one day!

Just my thoughts.

[missy4gordon 0]

Hi all, I've really enjoyed the lively debate in this thread. First off, Laurend, congrats to you for sharing a very candid assessment of your journey thus far in what has, I'm sure, at times felt like enemy territory. I think that took a lot of courage and maturity to discuss things in such an honest way. If you are still interested in learning with an open mind, you might try the book, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This is a very enlightening book, written by an atheist who went in search of facts to disprove Jesus as Messiah.

I, myself, am a Christian. My beliefs are very similar to Ron's, however, my approach may be different. Our Bible teaches us to go out and spread the gospel to all ends of the earth. Sometimes, we forget that people still have free will and can reject our truth. We are also taught to reject the "every man for himself" attitude in favor of looking out for others. But again, there is a difference between being responsible to and being responsible FOR. I am responsible to myself and to God to share my faith but I'm not responsible for others' decisions. With that said, I believe Jesus wants me to do everything within my power to make sure that everyone who hasn't heard the story of Jesus, is informed. Unfortunately, sometimes that means asking questions. I'll admit its something I'm not good at. I've always been quite shy about discussing my faith. A lot of it is out of fear of being thought a "fanatic" or "freak" but I've come to not really care as much. I also don't want to offend or be offended. I don't want to be thought a hypocrite because I do things sometimes that I'm not proud of. I'm far from perfect. Jesus commands his people to be like him but all of us fall so short and most of us end up being about as far from being like Jesus as we could possibly be. But, luckily, we don't have to be perfect. That's what salvation is.

I would ask that all of us, try to be more tolerant. I would say that so many things are done and said in Jesus' name that I don't believe he would ever endorse. God gave us the ability to decipher right from wrong and deeming a behavior to be wrong does not make one a biggot. We are supposed to decide right from wrong and to run from such behaviors. However, God has never advocated HATING anyone, not people of other races and not gays, murderers, rapists, or thieves. If Jesus hadn't mingled with the dregs of society, he wouldn't have been able to reach the lost. Jesus never acted like he was better than anyone else. Jesus was poor. He was willing to speak to poor people, rich people, sick people, well people, atheists and believers. He loved them ALL. If we are to be like Jesus, so should we. That is hard for us as earthly beings because our first instinct is to create an us vs. them environment but that creates distrust and anger among the masses.

I don't proclaim to know all the answers or to even be able to explain every verse in the Bible. I know what God has done in my life and that is what I can share with those who want to know. I know what is expected of me by my God and I'm not even close to fulfilling it but I do try. I believe that all of this is set and that what will be, will be. I do have questions but I refuse to let those questions interfere with my faith. I don't want to be left standing here when God comes back and destroys the earth. I saw a bumper sticker once that said "If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right" and it really resonated with me. If there is no God, and I believe there is and I conduct my life in love and in faith, I've lost nothing. But if there is a God, and I don't believe, I'm in real trouble one day!

Just my thoughts.

That was so beautifully put, well done! It very much describes my faith as well, but I am definately not that good at putting it into words as well as you did.

[wavydaby 1]

Yes, I want you to show me where it talks about treatment of slaves in the New Testament. The word slave is only used once in the entire New Testament, in the Book of Revelations, and mentions nothing about treatment or ownership. Have you ever even read the Bible??

Again, I take VERY deep offense to this. I ask if you have ever read anyother Biblical translation other than the one YOU think is perfect.

Wrong! Nobody is "creating a law against homosexuality"! We already have laws against same sex marriage. They are fighting for a Constitional Amendment to make the law a Federal Law mandatory upon all the states.

We have created laws against homosexuality and infringed upon their rights to be a happy people. By banning something that is part of their lifestyle (can you lookup laws against sodomy that have been used to persicute consenting adults?) we are creating laws against homosexuality.

The third

We dont recognise other religions based on the first commandment

What in the world does that even mean?

Ok, GOD said, You shall have no other Gods before me.

Not so much now, but for a long time, other religions were not given proper tax credit because they were not "Christian enough" And, Wiccans STILL have this fight today.

And lastly, we CHANGED some laws because, oops, somepeople do NOT worship God, and since we have some laws based on what is wrong/right in the bible, I guess we have to change that.

Again, What in the world does that even mean?

Ok, we have had laws (ie. divorce not allowed, no stores open on Sundays) that were in place because God said to do was was bad. We have gone back and changed those laws, (ie. made divorce legal, we can now shop on Sundays). Do you get it now?

I have read MY bible and here is the basis of the argument that we have with you.

The scholars who translated my bible have just as many FACTS to back their translation as yours does.

BUT the fact stands is that they ARE INDEED DIFFERENT.

YOUR BIBLE IS NOT ANY BETTER THAN MINE.

[Wheetsin 714]

If you believe that the bible should be read literally, then do you believe these things should occur? You believe that adulterers should be stoned, and that a husband having sex with his wife during her period is an executable offense?:

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21

If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately. DEUTERONOMY 22:22

If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. MARK 10:1-12

Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced. LEVITICUS 18:19

The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed. MARK 12:18-27

If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir. DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12

If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

You talk about "literal" on one hand, and "context" on the other. Doesn't "context" imply room for interpretation?

You've been asked several times what makes your interpretation "right", and anyone who reads the bible differently from you "wrong". Have you answered that question?

[lisah25 3]

The fact the the verse was speaking about Sodom and homosexuality and not about premartial sex. Of course premartial sex is a sin and against God's Law, but that is not what is being discussed in this verse. That is what you are taking out of context.

I still don't see where homosexuality is listed among the vices of Sodom that God was going to destroy them for. Do you have a verse?