Anti-Semitism In France!

[lisah25 3]

The Bible does teach that we should obey the laws of the land and those who are above us, as long as they do not go against the laws and commandments of God. The scriptures make it plain that abortion and same sex marriage go against the commandments of God and in the case of gay marriage, against the laws of nature as well. According to the scriptures, the foundation for our beliefs (a Christians) is supposed to be the Word of God and not our own reasoning. There is a serious issue if a Christian puts his own reasoning and understanding above what God says.

That's not what I asked. I wasn't asking about following laws, I was asking where in the Bible I am commanded to work to make laws to inforce what is in the Bible.

As I said before, I can't force anyone to believe anything. That is a personal matter. But I have an obligation according to the faith to take a stand for what I believe and know the Word of God says and to share my beliefs with others. They are then free to accept to reject them. They have free will.

But you are indeed forcing people to at least act as though they believe as you do. By wanting Biblical principles made into laws for no other reason then they are in the Bible.

[lisah25 3]

So by granting these rights to the minorities, you deprive the majority of their choice in matters of morals and ehtics. I am glad we don't have that here.

No one is depriving anyone of choices. What it does do is stop the majority from dictating how the minority should live.

I find it interesting that most polls show somewhere around 55% or so of the US is against any type of gay civil union. Polls also show that about 85-90% of the country identify as Christian. So I'm not the only one who feels as I do.

[lisah25 3]

I will respect my wife, the situation and our marriage by not posting for a few more days (or until my wife is well enough to travel from Florida to NY again to be with her mother).

I'm so sorry to hear about all you are going through!

[Ron Cusano 0]

Christians lead there lives (or at least ought to) according to the teaching of scripture, and the, principals, ethics and morals contained in the Bible, in every aspect of our lives . . . even in our politics! Our first obligation is to obey God rather that men.

The Apostle Peter and the other apostles were brought before the council of the high priest which commanded them to stop teaching about Jesus. Peter's answer to them was "we ought to obey God rather that men"!

Likewise, in all areas of life, we need to teach and support all that is contained in the Word of God, even if it's not 'politically correct'!! The Bible clearly speaks out against such things as same sex marriage and abortion, and therefore as Christians, we should also speak out against there abomiable practices.

That's not what I asked. I wasn't asking about following laws, I was asking where in the Bible I am commanded to work to make laws to inforce what is in the Bible.

But you are indeed forcing people to at least act as though they believe as you do. By wanting Biblical principles made into laws for no other reason then they are in the Bible.

[Ron Cusano 0]

No, you are not alone! The problem is that many people identify themselves as "Christian" who, by Biblical Standards, are anything but. The word "Christian" means "follower of Christ" by definition. So many who claim to be Christians do not use the Bible as their spiritual foundation, although Jesus clearly said that is exactly what we ought to be doing. He said "search the scriptures for in them you think ye have eternal life, and they are they that testify of me".

Jesus also said the the "path to destruction if wide, and the road to Heaven is narrow", and that in the judgement "many will say Lord, Lord, and He will say, depart from me ye workers of iniquity for I never knew you"! Yes, there are many, may who claim to be Christians but are anything but which is why there is such a gap in the polls. Real Christians who believe the Word of God take a stand for what it teaches.

I am not pointing the finger at you specificially because I don't really know what you believe.

No one is depriving anyone of choices. What it does do is stop the majority from dictating how the minority should live.

I find it interesting that most polls show somewhere around 55% or so of the US is against any type of gay civil union. Polls also show that about 85-90% of the country identify as Christian. So I'm not the only one who feels as I do.

[lisah25 3]

Christians lead there lives (or at least ought to) according to the teaching of scripture, and the, principals, ethics and morals contained in the Bible, in every aspect of our lives . . . even in our politics! Our first obligation is to obey God rather that men.

The Apostle Peter and the other apostles were brought before the council of the high priest which commanded them to stop teaching about Jesus. Peter's answer to them was "we ought to obey God rather that men"!

Likewise, in all areas of life, we need to teach and support all that is contained in the Word of God, even if it's not 'politically correct'!! The Bible clearly speaks out against such things as same sex marriage and abortion, and therefore as Christians, we should also speak out against there abomiable practices.

I'm not saying one word about speaking out, taking a stand or how we as Christians live our lives.

I'm talking about enacting laws that force other people to act by our beliefs. I have a problem with that.

Would you support a law that made everyone proclaim Jesus is their savior?

[anonemouse 1]

The Bible clearly speaks out against such things as same sex marriage and abortion, and therefore as Christians, we should also speak out against there abomiable practices.

Speaking out against them is one thing, making laws that govern people that don't believe as you do is another. I have no problem with people believing that gays and women who have abortions are wrong and that they are going to hell, that's their prerogative. I don't agree with them, but I think they are free to believe what they like. But I do draw the line at people making laws that outlaw gay marriage and a woman's right to choose. I don't believe that either is wrong, and I don't believe in sin or that they are going to hell. If you are ordained and you and your church members don't want you to marry two men or two women, don't. That's your choice. But you don't have the right to tell other people who may not believe like you do that they can't join them in matrimony.

[Ron Cusano 0]

No I would not support such a law because accepting Jesus is a personal choice that we must do freely. Things like same sex marriage and abortion are evils clearly noted in the Word of God that Believers need not only speak out against, but support in legislation. By not banning these acts, we condone them and they become socially acceptable, which by the way is what happened in Sodom. Do you also have a problem "forcing" people to not Murder? Steal? Having Adult Shops in your neighborhood? The law is built to ban wrong doing, and by Biblical standards, abortion and same sex marriage is wrong.

I'm not saying one word about speaking out, taking a stand or how we as Christians live our lives.

I'm talking about enacting laws that force other people to act by our beliefs. I have a problem with that.

Would you support a law that made everyone proclaim Jesus is their savior?

[lisah25 3]

No, you are not alone! The problem is that many people identify themselves as "Christian" who, by Biblical Standards, are anything but. The word "Christian" means "follower of Christ" by definition. So many who claim to be Christians do not use the Bible as their spiritual foundation, although Jesus clearly said that is exactly what we ought to be doing. He said "search the scriptures for in them you think ye have eternal life, and they are they that testify of me".

Jesus also said the the "path to destruction if wide, and the road to Heaven is narrow", and that in the judgement "many will say Lord, Lord, and He will say, depart from me ye workers of iniquity for I never knew you"! Yes, there are many, may who claim to be Christians but are anything but which is why there is such a gap in the polls. Real Christians who believe the Word of God take a stand for what it teaches.

I am not pointing the finger at you specificially because I don't really know what you believe.

Again, you are missing my point. How I live my life is between me and my God. As a Christian, I do strive to follow the Bible. But I still don't see where the Bible tells me to suupport laws that force people who don't believe as I do to live as though they do.

[lisah25 3]

No I would not support such a law because accepting Jesus is a personal choice that we must do freely. Things like same sex marriage and abortion are evils clearly noted in the Word of God that Believers need not only speak out against, but support in legislation. By not banning these acts, we condone them and they become socially acceptable, which by the way is what happened in Sodom. Do you also have a problem "forcing" people to not Murder? Steal? Having Adult Shops in your neighborhood? The law is built to ban wrong doing, and by Biblical standards, abortion and same sex marriage is wrong.

Well, I think accepting Jesus as a savior is one of the most important principals in the Bible, so I can't see why you wouldn't support laws for that, but to ban same-sex unions. It seems backwards to me to say that people have free-choice about whether to accept Him or not, but to want laws to make people act as if they do.

You miss another of my points, that I've said MANY times. That being, to me what should be addressed by law are things that hurt society. I don't see how same-sex relationships hurt society.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Does the law have the right to ban people from stealing? Murder? Rape? Selling drugs to your kids? Putting porn shops on your block? The purpose of the law is to ban wrong doing, and Christians with a biblical foundation, understand gay marriage and abortion to be wrong doing. So as a matter of conscience, we have an obligation to support laws to that effect. Every law forces someone to do or not do something, and it is based upon someones standard of right and wrong. The other choice is to not have laws against anything. Would you like to live in a world like that?

Speaking out against them is one thing, making laws that govern people that don't believe as you do is another. I have no problem with people believing that gays and women who have abortions are wrong and that they are going to hell, that's their prerogative. I don't agree with them, but I think they are free to believe what they like. But I do draw the line at people making laws that outlaw gay marriage and a woman's right to choose. I don't believe that either is wrong, and I don't believe in sin or that they are going to hell. If you are ordained and you and your church members don't want you to marry two men or two women, don't. That's your choice. But you don't have the right to tell other people who may not believe like you do that they can't join them in matrimony.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Accepting Jesus is a matter of personal acceptance and faith. Abortion and same sex marriage are evils. There is a huge distinction between the two.

You don't see where same sex marriage hurts society? Let's see . . . If a man and women can marry, why can't a man and two women? Or six women and 14 men? Or a man and a 10 year old boy? Or a women and a horse? Where do you draw the line!

Same sex marriage goes against the very biblical foundation of what marriage is, a man and a women, forming a family for pro-creation. Have you considered what God thinks about same-sex relationships? Read the first chapter of the book of Romans.

God thinks so much of the husband/wife relationship that He describes His relationship with His church as Him being the "Bridegroom" and the church being the "Bride"!

Whay you think and feel, and what I think and feel mean nothing. What is important is what God says! You know, we can rationalize all day long. The bottom line is, do we or do we not accept what the Bible says.

Well, I think accepting Jesus as a savior is one of the most important principals in the Bible, so I can't see why you wouldn't support laws for that, but to ban same-sex unions. It seems backwards to me to say that people have free-choice about whether to accept Him or not, but to want laws to make people act as if they do.

You miss another of my points, that I've said MANY times. That being, to me what should be addressed by law are things that hurt society. I don't see how same-sex relationships hurt society.

[lisah25 3]

You don't see where same sex marriage hurts society? Let's see . . . If a man and women can marry, why can't a man and two women? Or six women and 14 men? Or a man and a 10 year old boy? Or a women and a horse? Where do you draw the line!

Because adults "marrying" kids does indeed harm society. Multiple marriages, OK I don't like them. But as long as all involved are consenting adults, how do they hurt society?

Same sex marriage goes against the very biblical foundation of what marriage is, a man and a women, forming a family for pro-creation. Have you considered what God thinks about same-sex relationships? Read the first chapter of the book of Romans.

I'm not debating what the Bible says about it, I'm asking why this particular Biblical principal needs to be reflected in law. We've established you don't think all of them should be.

Whay you think and feel, and what I think and feel mean nothing. What is important is what God says! You know, we can rationalize all day long. The bottom line is, do we or do we not accept what the Bible says.

So, where does God say to put His princeples into law?

[Ron Cusano 0]

With all due respect, I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to get across. What you or I think or feel about abortion and same sex marriage is unimportant. What is important is what God says about them. And God says they are evil and an abomination, and like all sin, hurts society.

As Bible believing Christians we are obligated to oppose evil and abominations where ever we find them. Christians have a voice in creating laws, and those laws should be in accordance with the Word of God. As Peter said. "we ought to obey God rather than men"!

Is there a specific commandment that says go to congress and enact legislation to ban this or ban that? Of course not. In fact, in Biblical times people had no say in enacting law. But we are told to lead Godly lives and to oppose all evil.

We are not talking about creating laws to force Godly living on all people, we are talking about laws that would officially condon and encourage acts of evil. I don't know how to make it any plainer than that.

[/i]

Because adults "marrying" kids does indeed harm society. Multiple marriages, OK I don't like them. But as long as all involved are consenting adults, how do they hurt society?

I'm not debating what the Bible says about it, I'm asking why this particular Biblical principal needs to be reflected in law. We've established you don't think all of them should be.

So, where does God say to put His princeples into law?

[TommyO 5]

Where do you draw the line, there are a number of things in the bible that are considerred wrong, that today we would laugh at if laws were created to make them illegal. (An earlier post by T_O_M gave some examples) There has yet to be any discusion about why those things are not being put forward by Christians as requireing the legal system to support them

I ask then is the opposition to homosexual relationships really based on the bible or is it based on an individual with prejudice using the bible to prove their argument and at the same time being able to deflect any implication of prejudice.

What it comes down is you do not approve of homosexuals and rather than admitting to your prejudice you hide behind the bible. All the talk about love thy neighbour and such is really just a facade coverring a dislike for those who are different in some ways.

People tend to fear what they don't understand and they also dislike what they fear. This causes a prejudice based on ignorance but it's easy to get over it. We also tend to believe unfounded statements about those we dislike because it justifies our hatred. The easiest way to get over prejudice is to commit to learning about those groups in society that we don't understand. If an individual decides to truly understand those who are different from them they soon discover that they are really not that different after all. If an individuall decides to do this everytime they feel a sense of dislike for another group they will soon discover that they have a changed perspective. Soon they no longer fear diversity but rather they see the value it brings to the world and hatred is extinguished.

They say if you want to change the world but you feel you can't have an impact simply change the they way you percieve the world. Because the world is define by each of us based on our percetion of it by changing your perspective you have changed the world.

Don't let hate rule you take control and choose to believe in the good in all people.

Just a thought