Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

You said that your leaders views are "that of secular humanism, and that we want our elected leaders to reflect these values"! That being said,would you accept the views of a leader who was a Christian with his values reflecting Christianity"??

I suspect that mainstream Canadian values and lifestyles are primarily secular, that of secular humanism, and that we want our elected leaders to reflect these values when making choices in policies which affect the rest of us. This is why such contentious policies as the right for women to choose and the right for same sex couples to have a civil marriage are likely to remain enshrined in law even though there are some groups who are terribly unhappy with these rights, and even though Stephen Harper's personal religious views would likely place him firmly in that list.

In Canada there is very much a city/rural divide on this business of social policies with the cities tending very much more towards a liberal view. Until 15 or so years ago the socially conservative right did not have a voice in politics at all. Our options were the economic right or the economic middle of the road or the economic left. Our social policies reflected majority attitudes which started from slightly to the left of your Democrats. This rise of the moral conservatives has been a recent business and the movement is centered in the Province of Alberta. Many, many Canadians are uncomfortable with the introduction of social morality into their government. We figure that our morals are our own damn business.

[BJean 16]

Ron: One does not have to be religious in order to be a person with a firmly entrenched code of ethics and very high moral standards.

We've also learned that one's religious beliefs and their being vocal about them, does not necessarily mean that they have high moral standards or a good code of ethics. They may say they do but it just isn't always true, unfortunately.

[Ron Cusano 0]

You are right and I never said otherwise. You made a statement that your officials are mostly secular humanist and make decisions accordingly. Secular humanists and Christians have a different set of moral and ethical guidelines, so my question was, would you expect and accept an official who was a Christian to make decisions based on their Christian understanding of morals and ethics. While both Christians and non-Christians are able to make good moral and ethical decisions, they are based upon a different belief system, and are influenced accordingly.

And yes, I agree! Just because one makes religious claims does not necessarily mean they are ethical or moral. I will say that, from my observation and experience, a sincere Christian, although not perfect, will use good morals and ethics in making decisions.

Ron: One does not have to be religious in order to be a person with a firmly entrenched code of ethics and very high moral standards.

We've also learned that one's religious beliefs and their being vocal about them, does not necessarily mean that they have high moral standards or a good code of ethics. They may say they do but it just isn't always true, unfortunately.

[BJean 16]

Ron I think you meant to direct your response to Green.

I don't believe that you can sum people up based purely on what they claim to be. Doesn't matter if they're Christians or atheists.

Some people make a big fuss telling everyone that they are a Christian person. They go so far as to say that their business is a Christian Based business. They make sure that when they perform a service for someone, that the customer knows that they are a Christian. When I come into contact with one of those people I know to watch out! The most recent guy is the builder who built my DD's home. He is a pillar of his Church. Active as much as any member could be. Sits on councils, etc. He made sure that when my DD and her husband sat down to discuss him building their home, that they knew that he was a Christian and that he employed Christian subcontractors.

He managed to rip them off royally. Their windows leak, their electric bill was $700 last month because he didn't seal the home properly. He didn't install the gas lines. And I could go on. During the construction, one of his subs came and stole their specially ordered copper kitchen sink. He was caught in the act and we found out that he hadn't been out of prison long.

So all I am saying, is that when someone boasts about his Christianity too loudly, it makes me very nervous and I am very guarded around them. I won't even mention the president at this point.

[gadgetlady 4]

BJean, I've had the same experiences. It's very sad. One time I called someone on it and he got in my face, defending his selling me a defective item.

There's a quote I love; I think Francis of Assisi originally said it. "Preach the Gospel always. If necessary, use words."

[Ron Cusano 0]

I completely agree with you! Unfortunately, there are many, many who claim to be Christians and yet do not follow Christ or His teachings. Unfortunately, from my perspective, many once solid churches have adopted liberal, "politically correct" teachings that compromise the Word of God. Even Jesus said that "many will say Lord, Lord, but I will say depart from me ye workers of inquity"!! He also said that "the way to heaven is narrow but the way to destruction is wide"! There are many churches and denominations that call themselves Christian, but do not teach the unaltered Word of God.

Ron I think you meant to direct your response to Green.

I don't believe that you can sum people up based purely on what they claim to be. Doesn't matter if they're Christians or atheists.

Some people make a big fuss telling everyone that they are a Christian person. They go so far as to say that their business is a Christian Based business. They make sure that when they perform a service for someone, that the customer knows that they are a Christian. When I come into contact with one of those people I know to watch out! The most recent guy is the builder who built my DD's home. He is a pillar of his Church. Active as much as any member could be. Sits on councils, etc. He made sure that when my DD and her husband sat down to discuss him building their home, that they knew that he was a Christian and that he employed Christian subcontractors.

He managed to rip them off royally. Their windows leak, their electric bill was $700 last month because he didn't seal the home properly. He didn't install the gas lines. And I could go on. During the construction, one of his subs came and stole their specially ordered copper kitchen sink. He was caught in the act and we found out that he hadn't been out of prison long.

So all I am saying, is that when someone boasts about his Christianity too loudly, it makes me very nervous and I am very guarded around them. I won't even mention the president at this point.

[green 6]

You said that your leaders views are "that of secular humanism, and that we want our elected leaders to reflect these values"! That being said,would you accept the views of a leader who was a Christian with his values reflecting Christianity"??

I said that the overall face of Canadian values is that of secular humanism and that we are most comfortable when our elected leaders reflect this benign, moral, yet non-partisan public face. What relationship the dude may choose to cobble together between himself and his God is expected to be dealt with during his private time. In actual fact the past few Prime Ministers have been Roman Catholic. The present one is rumoured to be pretty devout and is some form of Protestant, maybe Methodist or Baptist or something along that line.

As for me accepting a devout Christian as my elected leader? Nope, I would not, not if he started introducing his beliefs into our politics. I am a Canadian and I was formed by our set of values and am most comfortable inside our framework. I feel we have a pretty good country, one that tries to be welcoming and inclusive and grant all people the same freedoms and rights. We are very low key up here.

[BJean 16]

Canadians: low key - attractive.

[Ron Cusano 0]

So are you saying that you are comfortable with a government based on secular humanist values but would not accept a governmant based on Judeo-Christian values? I don't consider secular humanistic values to be benign by any means, and certainly not moral when viewed from a Christian vantage point.

If a government leader is supposed to make judgements based upon what he considers right or wrong, I can't understand how he could not allow his belief system to be the motivating factor. In face, I think it's impossible.

I said that the overall face of Canadian values is that of secular humanism and that we are most comfortable when our elected leaders reflect this benign, moral, yet non-partisan public face. What relationship the dude may choose to cobble together between himself and his God is expected to be dealt with during his private time. In actual fact the past few Prime Ministers have been Roman Catholic. The present one is rumoured to be pretty devout and is some form of Protestant, maybe Methodist or Baptist or something along that line.

As for me accepting a devout Christian as my elected leader? Nope, I would not, not if he started introducing his beliefs into our politics. I am a Canadian and I was formed by our set of values and am most comfortable inside our framework. I feel we have a pretty good country, one that tries to be welcoming and inclusive and grant all people the same freedoms and rights. We are very low key up here.

[green 6]

So are you saying that you are comfortable with a government based on secular humanist values but would not accept a governmant based on Judeo-Christian values? I don't consider secular humanistic values to be benign by any means, and certainly not moral when viewed from a Christian vantage point.

If a government leader is supposed to make judgements based upon what he considers right or wrong, I can't understand how he could not allow his belief system to be the motivating factor. In face, I think it's impossible.

Well, we abolished the death penalty many decades ago. We have very strict gun laws and few citizens except those who live in rural areas legally own guns. I have personally never held a gun; that is how rare they are up here. This means almost all of our gun deaths involve the criminal element and they are most likely to be killing each other!

We have universal health care. This means that no family will ever be financially destroyed through a terrible illness. In large cities our school taxes are paid to the city who then allots them to the schools; all schools get an equal helping of the pie and this ensures that those kids who live in the poorer areas will get a better chance of getting somewhere else.

I suspect that Jesus would have no problem with any of the above. There is an overlap between secular humanist values and those taught by religion, you see.

Where a Christian government might run into trouble with the will of the Canadian people would be on such questions as a woman's right to choose, civil same sex marriages, and the civil and religious/a-religious rights of the plurality of people who live inside our borders. We wouldn't want to step on the toes of any of our citizens.

I know that the Canadian people did not want to participate in the fatwah that Bush was pushing for against Iraq. The Prime Minister who was in power at the time, a Catholic, told Bush that Canada would not participate and became unpopular in Washington because of this. Canada is, by the way, active in Afghanistan.

Canada has its own problems and its own shame. We have a situation with our Aboriginal peoples who live in the remote north which certainly rivals the squalor of the post-Katrina New Orleans. Your Christian president screwed that one up and we are screwing up, too.

As for you not considering secular humanistic values very benign when examined from your view point, well, for many of us the opposite is true. We are made nervous when we consider the excesses said/ performed by some Christians in the name of their God. Canadians are, as I have said before, a low key people. We try to be rational and kindly as a people. And many of us are Christians, too

[Sunta 5]

I certainly should have been born in Canada.

[Wheetsin 714]

Makes me want to move. :confused:

Hey Green - sthis is OT and I can't provide much info because I just heard it from someone else, but a co-worker asked me if I'd heard about, "the big deal with Canada and its Asian population, something about the number of kids they're wanting to kick them out of the healthcare system, or not let them stay there if they have more than a certain number of kids." Yeah - obscure, huh? But that's really all I know. I've looked for articles but haven't found a thing. Does that even sound remotely familiar, or is this another Normal Rockwell "he said, she said" situation?

[TommyO 5]

I must agree with Green, but I would like to add that as a Canadian I take great pride in being a citizen who participates in a system of equality. Much of what Canada stands for is based on all people being treated as equals. If you are White, Black, Brown, English speaking, French speaking,Male, Female, Gay, Straight etc you should be treated as an equal memeber of society. So for example if a Holly book said that speaking any language other than English was wrong we as Canadians would not stand for a law that reinforces that beleif. This is why so many Canadians have no issue with same sex marriage, to us it is much the same as saying that a person of another race can be legally unjustly treated.

But Canada is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, we do have a underclass. We still have a lot of work to do with minority rights but I think we are working to get there.

Ron, you use the terms "Liberal" and "Politically correct" with a certain malevolence, I view them very differently. I actually believe that history shows us that Liberalism has moved the world forward in a very positive direction. I would also venture a guess that the Jesus of the bible was a Liberal for his day and I bet he was also politically correct when set against the backdrop of Roman Empire circa 0020.

[green 6]

Makes me want to move. :confused:

Hey Green - sthis is OT and I can't provide much info because I just heard it from someone else, but a co-worker asked me if I'd heard about, "the big deal with Canada and its Asian population, something about the number of kids they're wanting to kick them out of the healthcare system, or not let them stay there if they have more than a certain number of kids." Yeah - obscure, huh? But that's really all I know. I've looked for articles but haven't found a thing. Does that even sound remotely familiar, or is this another Normal Rockwell "he said, she said" situation?

Normal Crockwell musta said it....:faint: and the answer is NO! Everyone who is on Canadian soil as a landed immigrant, citizen, or on a work permit has rights to our health system as do, I believe, individuals who are currently in the process of applying for refugee status.

There was a case recently in the news of a 67 year old woman, an illegal, who came up from the Caribbean who needed expensive - $150,000 - heart surgery. Most of our illegals seem to come from the Caribbean countries, by the way. There was a great debate as to whether the taxpayer should pay for this or whether she should simply be deported to her own country of origin. Many people felt that by giving her the operation a precedent would be set and we would be flooded by ailing illegals in need of expensive medical care. Her case was discovered when she went to a clinic which has been set up to serve our illegal population.

Nobody has ever been penalized for the number of children they have in this country with respect to the healthcare system or in any other way. In fact, the reason our immigration rates are so high is because the Canadian birthrate is way down. We share this problem with the industrialised European countries. Americans are doing much better at having children.:clap2:

From the occasional comments which I have read on the boards about our healthcare system I suspect that there is some misinformation which might sometimes be deliberately floated out there south of the border. Remember you have big business involved in your healthcare system and it is in their best interests that the American people remain satisfied with the current set-up. And, too, our healthcare system needs adjustments from time to time. Our population is ageing, you know.:phanvan

And, by the way, thank you all for your generous comments about Canada.

[Ron Cusano 0]

As I have mentioned before, there are a great many who call themselves Christians who are suspect to say the least!

I have no problem with a death penalty or private ownership of guns. Crimes with guns are commited by the criminal element and guns will always be available on the blackmarket Statistics show that areas with high private gun ownership produce the lowest crime rates. I have owned guns for most of my life and have never even thought of abusing them.

I know you have univeral health care, but from what I have read and heard, it's quality is not the best, and many Canadians come across the border for care not available up North.

And you are correct, I have a big problem with gay marriage and abortion which are the poster children of secular humanism. I believe that flies in the face of Christian truth and practice. This is my belief and understanding.

Well, we abolished the death penalty many decades ago. We have very strict gun laws and few citizens except those who live in rural areas legally own guns. I have personally never held a gun; that is how rare they are up here. This means almost all of our gun deaths involve the criminal element and they are most likely to be killing each other!

We have universal health care. This means that no family will ever be financially destroyed through a terrible illness. In large cities our school taxes are paid to the city who then allots them to the schools; all schools get an equal helping of the pie and this ensures that those kids who live in the poorer areas will get a better chance of getting somewhere else.

I suspect that Jesus would have no problem with any of the above. There is an overlap between secular humanist values and those taught by religion, you see.

Where a Christian government might run into trouble with the will of the Canadian people would be on such questions as a woman's right to choose, civil same sex marriages, and the civil and religious/a-religious rights of the plurality of people who live inside our borders. We wouldn't want to step on the toes of any of our citizens.

I know that the Canadian people did not want to participate in the fatwah that Bush was pushing for against Iraq. The Prime Minister who was in power at the time, a Catholic, told Bush that Canada would not participate and became unpopular in Washington because of this. Canada is, by the way, active in Afghanistan.

Canada has its own problems and its own shame. We have a situation with our Aboriginal peoples who live in the remote north which certainly rivals the squalor of the post-Katrina New Orleans. Your Christian president screwed that one up and we are screwing up, too.

As for you not considering secular humanistic values very benign when examined from your view point, well, for many of us the opposite is true. We are made nervous when we consider the excesses said/ performed by some Christians in the name of their God. Canadians are, as I have said before, a low key people. We try to be rational and kindly as a people. And many of us are Christians, too