Anti-Semitism In France!

[Victoriana 10]

Ahem, Religeon is one thing, faith is something alltogether different, and relationship with Christ Jesus is in a realm of its own, because it involves the Spirit.

I religeously take medication daily.

I have faith in my husbands love for me.

Chrish Jesus chose me before the foundations of the world were laid, He saw my unformed body and He numbered my days before a single one even happened. He died so I could be reconciled (relationship) to the Father, and I responded to His love by the revelation of truth by the Holy Spirit. I do believe that this completley defies rationality. But it does explain true Love.

[ousooner 1]

I can understand what Alexandra is attemting to say. I think you guys might be reading her words but missing what she is trying to say. At the same time, I think "logical" might be a better word to use than "rational", even though they are synonyms. I think that, by definition, believing in an all-powerful deity isn't "logical". If you think of it, if someone came up to you on a street and was raving about a giant purple frog that is all-powerful and created mankind, most people would automatically think, "Wow, this guy's nuts." What I have to ask is why is that man's belief more illogical than the mainstream beliefs of today? Believing in something that can not be proven and has no incontrovertible evidence to support it is not logical. That belief being widespread does not make it any more logical.

And I think this is the point that we can agree to disagree on. For those of us who belive in faith, it seems very illogical that anyone could beleive this whole thing called life could be as it is by chance and coincidence

[TommyO 5]

I would like to chime in here as I think that a key piece of the rational vs irational and logical vs illogical argument is being missed. I do not think that believing a supreme being, creatore or God is irrational. As a matter of fact I beleive that if there was a God they would have been capable enough to create the universe as we know it. They would also be more than capable enough to do all of this and make it appear to be have science as it's base. I would be somewhat disapointed if the creatore did not have those abilities, I mean really, an all powerfull omnipotent being should have no problem pulling that off.

The whole premise loses me when you then try and imagine that that same being would then leave us with such bad quality information outlining their intent. I can't read the bible or any other Holy book and logically conclude that it was devinely inspired by the creatore. I can't believe for example that God would create the universe in all it's Glory then decide to create Adam and Eve in the fashion that the bible and fundamentalist Christians insists He/She did. I could go on and on but I think you get the point, I think that a supreme being would have done a much better job on the whole documentation peice.

As an old friend of mine would often say "It just don't make no sense"

[Carlene 12]

At the end of the day, it still boils down to this...

the Atheists are betting that there is no God, no heaven, and no hell. The rest of us are hedging our bets, at worst. If the Atheists are right, nothing bad happens. If we're right, all you non-believers are gonna be asking us for ice Water.< /span>

[Ron Cusano 0]

http://shiloh-ministries.org/html/the_bible.html

[anonemouse 1]

Carlene, to an Atheist, that's like telling someone that lives in Kansas that they should worry about the next big hurricane.

[anonemouse 1]

I see you decided to rejoin us, Ron.

[Wheetsin 714]

Atheists are right, nothing bad happens. If we're right, all you non-believers are gonna be asking us for ice Water.< /span>

This always sounds like, "I believe just in case, because I'm afraid of the consequences that might come with not believing."

[gadgetlady 4]

This always sounds like, "I believe just in case, because I'm afraid of the consequences that might come with not believing."

I've never been particularly fond of this "neener, neener, neener, I told you so, I'm right and you were wrong" approach. I think people who turn to Christianity out of the FEAR of hell really miss out on the whole message of God's love and forgiveness.

I grew up Catholic and lived in fear of hell. I always used to wonder what would happen if I went to confession and got all cleaned up and absolved, then had a bad thought and drove over a cliff. It actually drove me away from God because it seemed so arbitrary. It wasn't until I truly understood God's grace and mercy and that my good works and righteousness were to Him like "filthy rags" that I stopped trying to EARN His love and instead just ACCEPTED it.

[gadgetlady 4]

Just read an interesting article, which can be found at http://www.dailybreeze.com/opinion/articles/5440526.html

How about science-based ethics?

By Paul Viggiano

Faith-based science is the hot new derogatory maxim. From the sacred halls of secular bioethics, the encyclicals blazon: "We must annihilate the influence of the theist, and pure science must reign as the uncontested canon of decency and morality." With papyrus firmly clenched in their mandibles, the monkeys fly.

Inscribed on the parchment are the names of scientists whose works were quelled by the myopic clergy: Copernicus, Galileo, Newton. Faith, it is asserted, is the absence of evidence. Faith has no place in science.

Hmmm. Just how would someone go about scientifically proving that faith has no place in science? Is the assertion subject to the scientific method? Can it be tested, measured, observed and repeated? Wait a minute! Is the scientific method subject to the scientific method? How does one go about proving that the scientific method is scientific? A conundrum indeed! It would appear that the scientific method is based upon faith in its own methodology.

If faith has no place in science, they might as well go public, make a bag of money and close shop, because faith has its ugly fingers all over science. The scientist must have faith in his observations, the accuracy of his instruments, the reliability of the conclusions of his predecessors, the uniformity of nature (that the future will be like the past -- something he can never prove), and his own ability to think clearly, which has already been proved questionable.

Theists (people who believe in God) are not opposed to good science. They recognize the worth and the validity of the process. But they see its limitations. Einstein said that science teaches us no truth; it merely helps us organize the things we observe.

Those who are opposed to faith-based science are now seeking to seize the language to advance, not their science, but their ethics. Faith-based science is not the problem; the problem is science-based ethics.

Such politically charged issues as stem-cell research, abortion, euthanasia and cloning are not heated due to disagreements regarding what one sees looking through the microscope. The pot is boiling, not due to science but ethics. Two equally competent OBGYNs might have radically opposing views regarding pregnancy terminations and stem cell usage.

Just how does science-based ethics work?

Does the DNA code contain some type of secular scripture? Will the science-based ethicist eventually discover the 10 genetic commandments? What if the 10 genetic commandments are the same as the Ten Commandments? How long before that gets published in scientific journal?

It's all so silly. Any thoughtful person realizes that the starting point of his world view is always based on faith. And faith is not a blind leap into a pool of irrational thoughts and concepts; it is a necessary beginning. And guess what? Even the atheists know this.

In a brilliantly written article in Wired magazine by Gary Wolf, atheists are given their day in court. "No Heaven. No Hell. Just Science" splashes across the cover. The latest diatribes against religion -- The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris and Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett -- receive the free promo. But Dennett, perhaps the most renowned of all, drops the baton.

This atheist-materialist, who demands good evidence for any conclusion, when asked the tough ethical questions by Wolf, responds with answers suitable for clerical ordination. Wolf writes, "Dennett knows that reason alone will fail. ... He doesn't want people to lose confidence in what he calls their 'default settings.' ... No rational creature, he says, would be able to do without unexamined sacred things."

I'm ready to take the weekend off and give Dennett my pulpit. Perhaps he can give a sermon on faith-based atheism. But Dennett wasn't finished. "It's not that science can discover when the body is ensouled," claims Dennett. "That's nonsense. We are not going to tolerate infanticide."

Why not? Someone might ask Dennett. It would, no doubt, be offensive to his faith.

[Victoriana 10]

I dont need "fire insurance" anymore because I have assurance. I feel like we are trying to communicate in english something that only can be communicated in another language.

I have a question for those who truly belive there is no God, or that dont believe in Jesus.

What do you do when you experience trauma, or extream loss, heartache, or some terrible experience. What do you do with the pain, How do you heal, I honestly wonder about your ability to remain level headed and move through one day to the next. Have you ever come to the end of yourself? I run into great sorrow in my life, and I could not move forward without the hope I have given me by my faith. What do you do, or better yet how do you do it? Where does your stregnth come from?

Im not being sarcastic, I really cant understand how you make it.

Perhaps this is too personal a question, Ill understand if no one responds to me, its just that I have been a believer so long that all my close friends are fellow believers too. Our coping mechanism is the same.

[Alexandra 55]

I have a question for those who truly belive there is no God, or that dont believe in Jesus.

What do you do when you experience trauma, or extream loss, heartache, or some terrible experience. What do you do with the pain, How do you heal, I honestly wonder about your ability to remain level headed and move through one day to the next. Have you ever come to the end of yourself? I run into great sorrow in my life, and I could not move forward without the hope I have given me by my faith. What do you do, or better yet how do you do it? Where does your stregnth come from?

Im not being sarcastic, I really cant understand how you make it.

When I unexpectedly lost my dear, dear father, for a while I honestly did not feel like I could go on. It was a tragic blow like no other I've felt before or since. It felt utterly incomprehensible that I would never see him again, and to my surprise the glimmer of a "faith" in an afterlife emerged. It did seem that I had a nugget of pure rock inside me, solidly reassuring me that we would meet again. It's the closest I ever came to feeling religious. I can completely understand how, at such times, people find comfort in their faith. This feeling did, indeed, fortify me through the painful time of adjusting to life without my best friend and advisor.

But time passed, pain retreated, and that impression born of sudden tragedy faded. In fact, my father DOES live on, inside me. He taught me what I need to get through life; I am who I am because he was my father. I dream of him often, and in my dreams he's met my daughters. Whenever I think of him, I still feel the hugs he was so generous with in life. So rather than wallowing in sorrow, in time I found myself being thankful for what he gave me, feeling sorry that he left us so soon.

I believe that "nugget" of belief in an afterlife that I felt was an instinctive, natural human reaction to sudden loss, and there was nothing supernatural about it. It did help me get through a very difficult time, indeed. (The resourcefulness of the human brain is amazing!) There have been other sorrows and trials in my life, certainly. In every case I cope by turning my attention to the people who need it, and handling details of whatever business is needed. When I'm very stressed I retreat to my bedroom and have a good cry.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I will drop in from time to time. I figured that the only way to take the focus off of me personally and get back to other topics was to back out for a bit.

I see you decided to rejoin us, Ron.

[Wheetsin 714]

What do you do when you experience trauma, or extream loss, heartache, or some terrible experience. What do you do with the pain, How do you heal, I honestly wonder about your ability to remain level headed and move through one day to the next.

There's no reason to worry about our ability to remain level-headed. We're probably some of the more level-headed people you'll ever meet, because that's just it - we use our heads.

* ETA - that's going to be read as "believers don't use their heads". Which isn't exactly what I mean, but kind of is - read on before jumping to conclusions.

When my religious friends lose someone, and plead to some mysterious force, and believe with all their hearts that the person is just transformed, and that they will be reunited -- I wonder about their level-headedness. And to a large degree I believe they continue life in a state of denial. When you believe life ends, period - you accept the person's death as the end. But when you believe the person is "transformed" into another form and "living" somewhere else, with all your other friends & family that is dead - such is not the case.

When my grandfather died, somewhat unexpectedly, probably about 4 years ago, I watched him take his last breath. And after they pronounced him dead I walked over and closed his eyes. It was so final - knowing that he was gone. And it hurt. And if I needed comfort I turned to my husband or my parents, and to myself. But nothing happened that bring on a lack of level-headedness. That's something people with faith don't seem to understand.

I already know this is not going to come across properly or well, but I'll say it anyway and hope that it is taken as it is meant. It will probably echo Alexandra's recent post to a degree.

When you believe that life ends at death, and that the person is utterly and irrevokably gone, death becomes a very rational thing. It happens, and it sucks, but you absolutely accept it as a final event. It hurts, but you understand it happens. You are left with a hole that you can either start working to fill, or you throw a rug over it and pretend that it isn't there. When I was younger and experienced one of my first deaths, I used to envy my religious friends to a degree, because how easy it must make things to believe that mortal separation is only temporary, and that you're reunited "on the other side" - and how much less potent the sting of death is when you see it as a temporary state. And while my religious friends could say "only his/her shell died, they're in a better place" and really believe it, I said, "That's it, they're gone." I used to think - how easy they have it. Because we're so acutely aware of our own mortality, and the finality of it, I think it has different meaning for us. When you see things with this kind of finality, rationale becomes your best medicine.

BTW, I say "we" but am certainly not the voice of non-believers everywhere. In this case "we" refers to DH and I, because we share the same ideas. Other non-believers may well disagree with me.

[green 6]

I dont need "fire insurance" anymore because I have assurance. I feel like we are trying to communicate in english something that only can be communicated in another language.

I have a question for those who truly belive there is no God, or that dont believe in Jesus.

What do you do when you experience trauma, or extream loss, heartache, or some terrible experience. What do you do with the pain, How do you heal, I honestly wonder about your ability to remain level headed and move through one day to the next. Have you ever come to the end of yourself? I run into great sorrow in my life, and I could not move forward without the hope I have given me by my faith. What do you do, or better yet how do you do it? Where does your stregnth come from?

Im not being sarcastic, I really cant understand how you make it.

Perhaps this is too personal a question, Ill understand if no one responds to me, its just that I have been a believer so long that all my close friends are fellow believers too. Our coping mechanism is the same.

In February of 2005 my kid brother suddenly died after a very short and unexpected illness; two months later my mother died in very much the same way. Her illness was also brief and unexpected. Both of them spent their last few days on earth alive but incommunicado and they died exactly two months apart.

My brother and my mother had very vivid personalities and it was both difficult and painful for me, an atheist, to imagine that these were entirely erased, entirely scrubbed out. My family is a small one and I was close to both of these individuals. I spent that first year missing them and grieving my loss. I even went through a period when I had the most irrational sense that they were only hiding and that now the game had gone on for far too long; it was time for them to come back!

But though I was a mess that year I knew that they were, quite simply, dead and I knew that the pain of death is something which only resides with the living. The dead feel nothing. This provided me with some strange comfort. They were beyond hurting or anything else. I was the one who was in trouble and I could shoulder that.