Anti-Semitism In France!

[BJean 16]

wavydavy: I hope you don't think that I believe that there is no God. Is that was you were trying to say by posting the poem?

[BJean 16]

Wavydaby: How far should we go in being our "brothers keeper"? Should we all put our earnings in one large pot and someone who knows what we need, dole it out as we need it?

I'm not trying to discourage you from posting at all. I am seriously interested in understanding if you think that the poem is a lovely sentiment that we should all strive for, or if you take it literally.

[Sunta 5]

To say that same sex marriage affects you is wrong. To say that it offends your Christian beliefs and your sense of morality may be true, but it has nothing absolutely to do with infringing on your rights or taking away your freedom. Banning same sex marriage is taking away (some) Americans' freedoms. It is wrong.

You probably have a good idea how I feel about your intervention in a woman's right to choose.

Keep your Christian beliefs out of my way. If you respect that this is a free country and that your Christian beliefs have nothing to do with me, you and I will get along fine. Otherwise, to me you're no different than a Muslim extremist telling me that I have to pray to Allah and cover my body from head to toe.

Yes. Yes yes.

[BJean 16]

Ron: Please don't misunderstand. I'm afraid you obviously have. You've said that something that is immoral, i.e., something that YOU believe is immoral because of your Christian beliefs (because the Bible has spelled it out for you), that you should take a stand on those immoral issues. What exactly do you mean by "take a stand"? My interpretation is that you believe that laws banning gay marriage and laws banning a woman being able to choose in the case of abortion, are right and good. Did I get that right?

If I did, then you are wanting to legislate (make laws) based on morality, based on your Christian faith, and by doing so you are forcing your beliefs on others with differing beliefs.

That is what President Bush is trying to do when he wants to ban those things and things like Stem Cell Research.

That is legislating morality. That is not just practicing his faith and witnessing and praising God, worshiping Him and embracing the Ten Commandments. He is forcing his version of God upon the rest of American society. Whether you think the Constitution was written by Methodists, Catholics, Churchs of Christ, Christian Scientists, or whatever their faith, the fact is they had the wisdom to understand that there are people who will try to force their religion upon others, that's why they put the language in about separation of church and state.

And this argument is exactly why that language is so incredibly, incredibly important to preserving freedom.

I suspect that if you had your way, we who do not choose to embrace your puritanical (in some ways) doctrines, we would hop on boats and go someplace else and start a country where we would not be forced to live with no personal choice in who or what we believe in.

God Bless America.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I think you have it backward! The morality that was inherent in our laws and constitution was originally based upon Biblical principals of morality and conscience. It was and is the foundation upon which our laws are established. It is what gives us that freedom you are so afraid of losing!!It is the point of reference that we use to determine right from wrong. If we did not use that as our point of reference, what then would you suggest???

Ron: To legislate morality (yours) is to reduce freedom in this country. That goes to the heart of my post.

I for one, knew that Bush was a proclaimed Christian, I did not know that his goal in life was to impose his religious views on all Americans. I did not know that he considered himself annointed by God in all of his decision-making. In many ways, he has lied to us. That is not what I believe most people in this country consider Christian behavior. That is one reason most people in this country feel betrayed. That is on reason people in this country fear him and fear the loss of freedom. You apparently did not have any idea of Conservative Christian thought or practice! Everything a Bible believing Christian does and say's is strongly influenced by his beliefs. We all understand that we have an anointing from God and the indwelling Holy Spirit that directs and teaches us. He did not lie to us! He is being exactly who he is and what he believes.

To say that same sex marriage affects you is wrong. To say that it offends your may be true, but it has nothing absolutely to do with infringing on your rights or taking away your freedom. Banning same sex marriage is taking away (some) Americans' freedoms. It is wrong.

How can something that is contrary to our morals and beliefs not effect us? We believe and understand marriage to be a sacred joining of a man and women together in a sacred union that is sacred to God. In fact the Bible describes the relationship of Christ to His church in terms of the martial relationship. To a Christian with this belief and understanding, same sex marriage is contrary to what it was intended to be, and an abomination in the sight of God.

You probably have a good idea how I feel about your intervention in a woman's right to choose.

Keep your Christian beliefs out of my way. If you respect that this is a free country and that your Christian beliefs have nothing to do with me, you and I will get along fine. Otherwise, to me you're no different than a Muslim extremist telling me that I have to pray to Allah and cover my body Our country was formed by God fearing founders that based the franework of our Constitution and our legal system upon their beliefs and understanding. If you want to live in a country that does not have it's laws and government based upon and rooted in Christian Biblical morals and understanding, that you should seek to change our entire legal system, and write a new Constitution, or look for another country.

[lisah25 3]

Ron: Please don't misunderstand. I'm afraid you obviously have. You've said that something that is immoral, i.e., something that YOU believe is immoral because of your Christian beliefs (because the Bible has spelled it out for you), that you should take a stand on those immoral issues. What exactly do you mean by "take a stand"? My interpretation is that you believe that laws banning gay marriage and laws banning a woman being able to choose in the case of abortion, are right and good. Did I get that right?

If I did, then you are wanting to legislate (make laws) based on morality, based on your Christian faith, and by doing so you are forcing your beliefs on others with differing beliefs.

That is what President Bush is trying to do when he wants to ban those things and things like Stem Cell Research.

That is legislating morality. That is not just practicing his faith and witnessing and praising God, worshiping Him and embracing the Ten Commandments. He is forcing his version of God upon the rest of American society. Whether you think the Constitution was written by Methodists, Catholics, Churchs of Christ, Christian Scientists, or whatever their faith, the fact is they had the wisdom to understand that there are people who will try to force their religion upon others, that's why they put the language in about separation of church and state.

And this argument is exactly why that language is so incredibly, incredibly important to preserving freedom.

I suspect that if you had your way, we who do not choose to embrace your puritanical (in some ways) doctrines, we would hop on boats and go someplace else and start a country where we would not be forced to live with no personal choice in who or what we believe in.

God Bless America.

:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

[lisah25 3]

I think you have it backward! The morality that was inherent in our laws and constitution was originally based upon Biblical principals of morality and conscience. It was and is the foundation upon which our laws are established. It is what gives us that freedom you are so afraid of losing!!It is the point of reference that we use to determine right from wrong. If we did not use that as our point of reference, what then would you suggest???

You never proved that. I've pointed out many things that are important in the Bible that are no where in our laws.

To me, the point of reference for what we make our laws about is protecting society and it's members.

[BJean 16]

No Ron. Just because the people who framed the Constitution were moral and God fearing men, doesn't mean that the Constitution was BASED on the Bible. It was based on the framers making sure that the rights of individuals are not abridged. It was based on making sure that Americans ARE NOT forced to worship any one religion or belief. They had experienced it and therefore they knew how horrendous it is. You are the one who has it backwards.

[BJean 16]

lisah25: I am with you. I read earlier where you defended the intention of the framers of the Constitution.

At this point, it is incumbent upon Ron to show us where it is documented anywhere that the earliest Americans sat down with a Bible and included verbage in the Constitution based on It's teachings.

And our laws have the exact intention (or should have) of preventing people from harming each other and from infringing on others' freedom.

[lisah25 3]

lisah25: I am with you. I read earlier where you defended the intention of the framers of the Constitution.

At this point, it is incumbent upon Ron to show us where it is documented anywhere that the earliest Americans sat down with a Bible and included verbage in the Constitution based on It's teachings.

Yep. Just claiming things like "it's common knowedge" aren't really good debate tactics.

[BJean 16]

lisah25: It ain't necessarily so just because you say it is. Amen, sister.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

But they also teach them to be suicide bombers and kill the infidels whenever possible, which gives you great rewards in heaven. The bombing and killing part could be a problem, don't you think??

And the USA doesn't teach that killing is ok?

Ever wonder why the USA is always at war?

Maybe it is because our children have to stand up each day in school and salute an instrument of war. Yes, the reason for flags was so that in battle, the fighters would know which side was theirs.

Maybe also, it is because our National Anthem is a war song. Maybe if we were not so preoccupied with pledging our allegiance to an implement of war and singing a war song, we might be less inclined to get into wars.

Why can't our school children pledge their allegiance to the US Constitution and why can't we sing "America the Beautiful" before the ballgames?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I can disagree strongly! I can only speak for Bible believeing Christians, but the Bible tells us to teach our children the faith from the time that are small so they don't depart from it. In today's world especially, not doing so leaves them open to being innoculated with the godless, anti- religious culture that is so ever present.

Perthaps Dawkin can explain the difference between innoculating children to believe in a fantacy, as he put's it and innoculating children to believe there is no God? Since Dawkin considers God to be a fantacy, perhaps he has a vested interest in kids not believeing in God! Sounds a little biased, doesen't it??

If someone truely believes in God, how could they not, in good conscience, not teach it to their children as fact. The only ones that might have a problem with this are those who don't believe in God, so their's is not a very objective observation and opinion.

Do we also have to send them to [ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE]"Jesus Camp"?[/ame]

Almost everything that can be said about the Muslim fanatics can be said about the Christians who are fanatics.

Almost everything that can be said about Adolph Hitler can be said about George W. BuSh.

Many in the USA think that teaching our children our prejudices is ok, because they do not realize that they are prejudices, because they are surrounded by like minded prejudice.

They only hope for the USA is the ability of average citizens to speak out, but government along with Big Business and the Christian Right Political Movement is trying to stamp out any independent thinking.

[BJean 16]

TOM: I lived in Florida and went to Epcot countless times with visiting friends. We would go around the lagoon and visit different countries and view their fabulous PR pieces on those countries, Then we would come to the American pavillion, view that presentation and leave shaking our heads. The other countries had presentations about the beautiful scenery in their homelands, some emphasized the beautiful people of their country, all paint beautiful pictures of their countries... America? It emphasized how America came into being and goes on to talk about all our different wars. It's embarrassing even if you are proud of the fact that we are a strong nation and that we won those wars, it's embarrassing that they saw fit to not talk about our breathtaking scenery, our contributions to the betterment of the world, our incredible melting pot of humanity. They gave a presentation based on our military strength and how we can kick anybody's ass.

[BJean 16]

Ron, I hope you weren't saying you're speaking for ALL Bible believing Christians.