Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

If what you said happened the way you said it did, it was definitely wrong, but I can tell you it is the rare exception rather that then rule.

I agree that government should not regulate religion, and I feel that church's should be permitted to support canidates that support positions that are in accordance with church teachings. Withholding tax exempt status is blackmail clear and simple.

Should religon be permitted to effect government?? Absolutely! Our elected officials are supposed to reflect the collective will of the majority of the people. If the majority of the voters are church goers, and they are, and church opinion is valuable in helping them decide issues in accordance with the spiritual views and understanding, it is a no-brainer! I think the people who have a problem with this are not church goers and are part of the minority of voters in this country.

My wife and I have a friend of over 20. We were neighbors in Brooklyn before we moved to Florida 3 years ago and I was her co-worker when we met in 1984. She also moved to Florida about 5 years ago and now lives 100 miles from us.

She is a 45 year old Black woman who goes to a Protestant church. Her sister lives within 5 miles of her and also attends the same church along with many of their friends As you may or may not know, Black women voted over 95% in the last two presidential elections for the Democratic candidate and Blacks in general were about 80%.

On the Sunday before the 2004 BuSh-Kerry election, their minister had a guest minister give the sermon. That minister told the congregation that a vote for Kerry is a vote for Satan because of Kerry's pro-choice, pro-Gay union stance.

It would have been ok to talk about the immorality of abortion and of gay sexual activity, but it was not ok to mention either Kerry or BuSh by name or to suggest that a sermon is a voting instruction.

Both our friend and her sister have been life long Democrats, but the sister voted for BuSh. Our friend did the right thing. The sisters still debate their choices to this day. Many of the congregation voted for BuSh based on the sermon.

My minister talks about politics all the time, but our whole congregation, 100% unanimous has voted for the church to not take a IRS deduction and we are therefor allowed to discuss these things. Money is regulation. Religion should not be regulated by the government, but religion should not regulation the government either. If we wanted a tax deduction for our weekly contributions, we can't be politically active. If my minister wanted to avoid tax, he could stop talking from the pulpit about politics. It is ironic that the extra tax we pay to be politically active helps to finance the wars that we speak against. But at least we are honest about it.

[green 6]

If Adam and Eve would have had a lapband they probably wouldn't have eaten that apple!

:confused: And we would have been saved a lot of grief!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Should religon be permitted to effect government?? Absolutely! Our elected officials are supposed to reflect the collective will of the majority of the people. If the majority of the voters are church goers, and they are, and church opinion is valuable in helping them decide issues in accordance with the spiritual views and understanding, it is a no-brainer! I think the people who have a problem with this are not church goers and are part of the minority of voters in this country.

Well, I guess then, I have no brains. That is why people have complained about your style. You imply that to disagree with you, shows proof of inferiority.

It is ok for a minister to condemn abortion, but not to say to vote for Mr. A instead of Mr. B.

The minister has too much power and is too much of a authority figure, and as I mentioned in a different thread, people are too easily swayed by authority figures as proved by the "Milgram Experiment". In the "Milgram Experiment" subjects killed other people when the authority figure said that it was ok. Of course, no one died because it was rigged, but the subject pressed the switch which would have killed if it was not rigged. The people of Germany tortured and killed innocent people because their authority figures said it was right.

Ministers might not be that evil, but when one minister or group of ministers wants to do things that are evil and they claim it is God's will, then people will respond with evil deeds. It has happened with Muslim terrorists. It has happened with White Supremacy groups in the USA, UK and Germany. It can happen with Evangelical Christians or to Jewish people who belong to fanatical groups.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Well, I guess then, I have no brains. That is why people have complained about your style. You imply that to disagree with you, shows proof of inferiority.

What are you talking about! Where did I say or imply that?? How in the world are you reading that into my opinion or are you just looking for something to complain about with me??

It is ok for a minister to condemn abortion, but not to say to vote for Mr. A instead of Mr. B. Absolutely, if it is against the observance of their faith. Should a church change their belief system to accomodate politics?? That also seems like it answers itself!

The minister has too much power and is too much of a authority figure, and as I mentioned in a different thread, people are too easily swayed by authority figures as proved by the "Milgram Experiment". In the "Milgram Experiment" subjects killed other people when the authority figure said that it was ok. Of course, no one died because it was rigged, but the subject pressed the switch which would have killed if it was not rigged. The people of Germany tortured and killed innocent people because their authority figures said it was right. People in church's are not idiots and can think for themselves! The listen to pastors and church leaders because they respect them enough to hear spiritual truth from them, but are intelligent enough to open their own Bibles and make sure it is considtant with the scriptures.

Ministers might not be that evil, but when one minister or group of ministers wants to do things that are evil and they claim it is God's will, then people will respond with evil deeds. It has happened with Muslim terrorists. It has happened with White Supremacy groups in the USA, UK and Germany. It can happen with Evangelical Christians or to Jewish people who belong to fanatical groups.

It can happen to any group, Democrats, Republicians, Conservatives, Liberals, Athiests, etc. So what is your point!! Not allow anyone the right to free expression of speech or for there to be leaders of any kind because the is a chance someone might do sonthing evil?? I don't understand that logic!

[gadgetlady 4]

I know that's never happened in any of the churches I've attended. I know because I pay attention and I would like to SEE it happen! I'm always disappointed when it doesn't. Call me a Christian Fundamentalist Fanatic Terrorist (oh, sorry, that's already been said about me) if you want. I also believe people should have to pass a test of their basic understanding of American government before they can vote.

[Ron Cusano 0]

That makes pefect sense to me!! :clap2:

I know that's never happened in any of the churches I've attended. I know because I pay attention and I would like to SEE it happen! I'm always disappointed when it doesn't. Call me a Christian Fundamentalist Fanatic Terrorist (oh, sorry, that's already been said about me) if you want. I also believe people should have to pass a test of their basic understanding of American government before they can vote.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

You implied that I have no brains when you stated that your view was a "no brainer". Anyone who differs would therefor have no brains.

It is ok for a minister to speak against the act of abortion, but once he starts naming politicians, it is no longer religion it is politics. When a church names politicians, they do not forfeit their right to free speech, they forfeit their right to have the tax benefits of being a church.

The people in the Milgram experiment were not idiots either, but they still killed their fair share of ringers. How do you account for White Supremacy groups being led by ministers? How do you account for Jerry Falwell never talking about the Beatitudes when he talks of Christian values on secular TV shows?

Yes it can happen in any group in theory, but Atheists and Liberals are not as prone to the manipulation of authority figures because when they become prone to them, they stop being Atheists and Liberals.

Fundamentalists of any breeding tend to be followers of doctrine almost by definition. And the doctrine is that of authority figures, human or book.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I know that's never happened in any of the churches I've attended. I know because I pay attention and I would like to SEE it happen! I'm always disappointed when it doesn't. Call me a Christian Fundamentalist Fanatic Terrorist (oh, sorry, that's already been said about me) if you want. I also believe people should have to pass a test of their basic understanding of American government before they can vote.

Does that include knowing that BuSh is not King George?

And that there are three separate and equal branches of government?

And that at least one of those branches has said that church and state must be kept separate?

Should we amend the the US Constitution to make the USA a Theocracy?

[lisah25 3]

I have attended Protestant churches for over 30+ years and I have NEVER heard a sermon on politics in any way, shape and form. The closest I have ever heard was being advised to vote, and encourage to vote for canidates that express godly and moral principals, although NEVER mentioned by name or party.

I don't know where you got your information, but it is very suspect to say the least.

Things are different on the east coast then it sounds like. Here, there are many VERY politically outspoken pastors. Who are very happy to tell their followers who to vote for, and how to vote on what issues.

[Ron Cusano 0]

It might mean that you do not understand the usage of the phrase or that you are looking to find fault with every word I write!

You implied that I have no brains when you stated that your view was a "no brainer". Anyone who differs would therefor have no brains. The term means that something is so logical that you don't even need to think about it. It does not mean you have no brains.

It is ok for a minister to speak against the act of abortion, but once he starts naming politicians, it is no longer religion it is politics. When a church names politicians, they do not forfeit their right to free speech, they forfeit their right to have the tax benefits of being a church. That is the way the law is written. Finally we agree on something! I also think it is wrong! I think ministers should have the right to speak about abortion and also name politicians that vote for it!

The people in the Milgram experiment were not idiots either, but they still killed their fair share of ringers. How do you account for White Supremacy groups being led by ministers? You are talking about a few, ultra right-wing weido's who claim to be Christians, are anything but, and are the extreme minority!

How do you account for Jerry Falwell never talking about the Beatitudes when he talks of Christian values on secular TV shows? If there is some meaning to that statement, ir certainly escapes me. If he is talking on a secular TV show, perhaps the Beatitudes are not apporiate subject matter for the show!

Yes it can happen in any group in theory, but Atheists and Liberals are not as prone to the manipulation of authority figures because when they become prone to them, they stop being Atheists and Liberals. Judgeing by todays politics, I think just the opposite is true, but that is a matter of opinion. You are entitled to you, and I disagree.

Fundamentalists of any breeding tend to be followers of doctrine almost by definition. And the doctrine is that of authority figures, human or book.

Exactly the same can be said of Athiests and Liberals who are just as much findamentalists to there party line. Since fundamentalist church ministers form their opinions based upon church doctrine, which is what fundamentalist Believers believe, then this is not a bad thing for fundamentalist Believers who are the majority of votors. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me!!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Things are different on the east coast then it sounds like. Here, there are many VERY politically outspoken pastors. Who are very happy to tell their followers who to vote for, and how to vote on what issues.

I guess then, there is more politicking from the pulpit than some want to admit.:confused:

Thank You!

[ousooner 1]

My only question is: Why is it not appropriate to as a spiritual leader, to direct you people to vote in a manner that is consistant with the moral code set by the organization. I say that carefully, because that could apply to any group. Planned parenthood lobbies people to vote for pro-choice candidates. The NRA lobbies people to vote for candidates that support their ideas. Minority groups lobby to support candidates that help their cause. The list goes on. Why would Christian leaders not lobby for candidates that supported their views as well?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Churches may not endorse political candidates by name in order to keep their tax exempt status, but they can certainly address political issues in the context of church doctrine. That's what some churches and clergy are all about. Unless there is someone in the congregation who is willing to turn them in, or who is an official church policeman, no one knows how often it has happened. Many preachers are passionate enough to take the risk of leading the congregation in a certain direction with regard to politics. Although speaking the name of the candidate who is running who shares that direction, is not necessary. Everyone knows who they are.

I am not painting all churches with the same brush. You are doing that!!

Has no one else here been witness to what I'm talking about? Ever?

I have listened to Pat Robertson speak from his TV pulpit and nearly everytime I have heard him, he has addressed a political issue. Maybe his televangelical church dosen't claim tax exempt status. Maybe it is a for profit organization. Enlighten me on that will ya?

Right on, Sister!:confused:

[Ron Cusano 0]

If that is the case they are breaking the law and rishing their tax exempt status. I am on the East Coast and have been in a large number of church's and have yet to run across it.

I guess then, there is more politicking from the pulpit than some want to admit.:confused:

Thank You!

[lisah25 3]

My only question is: Why is it not appropriate to as a spiritual leader, to direct you people to vote in a manner that is consistant with the moral code set by the organization. I say that carefully, because that could apply to any group. Planned parenthood lobbies people to vote for pro-choice candidates. The NRA lobbies people to vote for candidates that support their ideas. Minority groups lobby to support candidates that help their cause. The list goes on. Why would Christian leaders not lobby for candidates that supported their views as well?

As I understand it, any church that is claiming tax-exempt status legally can not endorse a specific candidate.

BUt my post was prompted by claims that there isn't politics being preached from the pulpit. It is. I've seen and heard it. Left one church because of it.