Anti-Semitism In France!

[TruBlueSue 0]

It is not as simplistic as that, and I am sure you know it. He was a major threat to the Middle East and the world oil supply, he committed genocide against the Serbs, he promoted or turned a blind eye to murdering and raping his own people but his sons, and the list goes on. He was evil, and we did the right thing.

Saddam committed genocide against the KURDS, not the SERBS - they were in Bosnia...:faint:

[TruBlueSue 0]

Ron, you seem very supportive of the mess in Iraq...and of our going after our enemies where we find them. Yet, TrueBlueSue and I seem to see if from a different perspective. (I don't speak on her behalf, it's just an observation.)

Interestingly enough, she's a veteran of the Gulf thing and I'm a Viet Nam Era Vet...so, I'm naturally wondering if you, too, are supportive of all this military intervention because of/in spite of a military background?

GSue, you can speak for me. I have the utmost respect for the women veterans of your era; I had a lot of crap to deal with during my service; I'm sure yours was triple-fold what I experienced. And, as someone whose father served in Vietnam, I want to say to you two things...

1.) "WELCOME HOME!"

2.) Thank you for your service.

[Wheetsin 714]

What will winning look like? It's a serious question, not being snarky.

What milestones have to be reached for you to say "we win and can bring our troops home?"

That's a really valid question, Lisa. It's a war on terror. War on terrorism. War against terror. The long war. It's such an abstract concept. Be it military or residential or vocational or whatever, before you enter into any effort, the best thing you can ask is, "How will I know when I'm successful?"

Asked "Can we win?" Mr. Bush said, "I don't think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that the — those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world." [...] Mr. Bush suggested in an interview with Time magazine that he still would have gone into Iraq but with different tactics if he had known "that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day."

Huh? :faint:

[dpingl 0]

Ron, the Taliban doesn't want our country. They want us out of theirs.

:omg: I don't think the AFGHAN people would agree that the country of Afghanistan belongs to the TERROR group called the Taliban. It belongs to the Afghan people and we as well as other countries are trying to free them from the grips of this terriost group so that women once again can walk their streets without fear and punishment.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

:omg: I don't think the AFGHAN people would agree that the country of Afghanistan belongs to the TERROR group called the Taliban. It belongs to the Afghan people and we as well as other countries are trying to free them from the grips of this terriost group so that women once again can walk their streets without fear and punishment.

The Afghan people don't want our rules. Do you remember last year when that man was on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity? Condoleezza Rice said that wasn't democracy. Sure it was. The majority of people (who voted) voted for the representatives who passed that law which had the death penalty as its punishment.

What are we supposed to do if the representatives democratically elected in Afghanistan pass a law making the Qur'an the legal basis for their laws?

About 3 years ago, prior to the elections in Iraq, when they were working on the interim constitution, the Representatives trying to hash out the constitution wanted to allow Muslim clerics to make the laws (like in Iran) and Rumsfeld said, "That ain't going to happen". How can we "free" a country and then tell them what rules they can have? It is not freedom if we control their selection of rules.

This sounds like the debate over predetermination (God knowing what you are going to do) and freewill that we were having a few days ago.

[GeezerSue 7]

Just to change the subject, today I went for my 3rd fill. I naw have 3cc in my 9cc band. They always say to do all liquids for a day. I don't feel any inflamation or swelling so I was wondering if it would be asking for trouble to eat something soft tonight. What do you think??

You should post this--I think--on one of the on-topic threads, because the answers will help others as well.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

In terms of Iraq, I think of winning as when a free independant Iraq can govern itself without the internal factions killing each other, and when we can rest comfortable that it won't disrupt the Middle East and it's oil flow.

That is a serious answer.

We have no right to kill people to guarantee oil flow. We could have worked at being energy independent, but we were too gluttonous. Jimmy Carter put a group of executive orders into effect as president which, if they had been left in place, might have freed us from the anchor of Middle-Eastern oil by now, but Ronald Reagan killed all those rules.

Now BuSh has proposed many of those rules again and the Republicans are hailing him as a visionary.

No matter how long we sacrifice our youth in Iraq, and no matter what the government looks like in Iraq when we leave, as soon as something goes wrong, the Shiites will start killing Sunnis and the government will turn a blind eye. They have a 1000 years of hatred stored up. They do not know anything about keeping a democracy going.

Half the people in the USA would give up our civil rights for security. Just look at the polls after the stories about NSA spying on phone calls and e-mail without warrants came out. We have had a democracy for 230 years, but may lose it soon. All it will take is one attack bigger and badder than 911.

[GeezerSue 7]

...

In terms of Iraq, I think of winning as when a free independant Iraq can govern itself without the internal factions killing each other, and when we can rest comfortable that it won't disrupt the Middle East and it's oil flow.

That is a serious answer...

You are aware that the "internal factions" are REALLY the artificially united peoples of three different areas, aren't you? And that they have been fighting each other for about 1600 years...

Did you have a timeline in mind that would undo 1600 years of mutual murdering and marauding? (I'm pretty sure Dubya didn't...he thought the mission had been accomplished when he was playing sky cowboy.) Now, no matter how hard you try, 1600 years of hating your neighbor does impact how you live your life.

What you WILL have there is probably fundamentalist (and you know how they are) Muslim as a backlash to Saddam's lack of religious interest. The call to prayer will ring out five times per day. Women may or may not be allowed to drive cars. People who convert to other religions may be executed. It will be okay to kill rape victims, since--by being raped--they have disgraced the family. There's your democratic Iraq of the very near future.

[ousooner 1]

Since this has morphed in the war debate, let me chime in. I am torn. I supported it and I still think it important to present a united front. But....I don't know how this will end. The people in that part of the world have a different mentality than we do-good, bad, indifferent, whatever. I grew up in Libya until the Americans were told to leave. My mother was pregnant with me during the coup and Gaddafi came to power. Although I was young, I was exposed to the environment both directly and also through stories from my parents. It is hard to negotiate with people who see things in a totally different view. Us American's find it horrible that children die, while many in that region find it honerable to send their children off to blow people up including themselves. How to you reason or come to agreements when ideologies are so different? I don't know the answers, but I do know that this is far more complex that most realize. Sorry I only have questions and no resolutions.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

American's find it horrible that children die, while many in that region find it honerable to send their children off to blow people up including themselves.

If that was true, we would all be calling for our children in Iraq to return home.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Not being in government or politics, I can't define it. I have to leave it to the experts.

OK, but how will we know when that point has been reached? What will that look like? What benchmarks do we look for?

[ousooner 1]

If that was true, we would all be calling for our children in Iraq to return home.

I understand, it is an internal fight I have with myself all the time. TOM - we don't agree with very much on the political or religous front. But I truely respect your insightfulness. Even though I don't agree with most, your posts are very thought out and, unlike some who I think throw things out to make waves and to get reactions, you have a true conviction for what you say and I have much respect for that.

[Ron Cusano 0]

You are right! Another senior moment! Sorry about that!

Saddam committed genocide against the KURDS, not the SERBS - they were in Bosnia...:faint:

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Saddam committed genocide against the KURDS, not the SERBS - they were in Bosnia...:faint:

How prophetic was that slip?

The Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians were held apart for many years by the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia's President Marshal Tito. As soon as Tito died and the Soviet union broke up, the Serbs, Bosnians and Croatians started fighting WW1 again and broke Yugoslavia into pieces.

We have an exact parallel to that in Iraq with the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds. But what makes it worse in Iraq is that the battles between these groups will spill over into the neighboring countries.

The situation might be ameliorated if George W. BuSh would just try to negotiate with all of the countries in the area, Turkey, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But stubborn Bush and stubborn Rice will not talk to Syria and Iran. Their pride gets in the way of peace.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I understand, it is an internal fight I have with myself all the time. TOM - we don't agree with very much on the political or religous front. But I truely respect your insightfulness. Even though I don't agree with most, your posts are very thought out and, unlike some who I think throw things out to make waves and to get reactions, you have a true conviction for what you say and I have much respect for that.

And I respect you and many other people on the opposite side of the political fence. But we must break down those fences. We must protect the USA, but we must be fair to the rest of the world also.

I am a left wing person. You, I believe, are a right wing person.

The American Eagle needs both a left wing and a right wing to soar.

Two right wings or two left wings can only lead to a crash and breakup.