Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

If that is true, then why does everyone get so upset when I say what I believe?? I have been told in no uncertain terms that some take offence because I believe my beliefs are absolute and I won't be flexible on them. Do I have a right to believe and say that here??

Is someone here keeping you from posting? Have you been censored?

As I see it, we are all free to say what we want. Including how we feel about what other people say.

[lisah25 3]

Go back and read what the post actually said! I pointed out how stupid it would be to classify athiests in the same catagory as Hitler or any one else, as it is stupid to classify Christian fundamentalists and fanatics. I did not compare athiests to Hitler. Go back and read the words! You are twisting them.

What you said was "So if you can mock fundamentalists and compare them to Taliban, is it OK if I were to mock athiests and compare them to Hitler? Is that acceptable to you??"

Sue made a connection between fanatical fundamentalists and the Taliban. You made no comparable connection between athiests and Hitler.

But yes, you didn't actually compare the two. So I apologize for saying you did.

[lisah25 3]

If that is true, then why does everyone get so upset when I say what I believe?? I have been told in no uncertain terms that some take offence because I believe my beliefs are absolute and I won't be flexible on them. Do I have a right to believe and say that here??

Of course you do.

What you don't have is a right to not have your words challenged, or a right to not have people not like what you say and tell you so and why.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I love how Fox News calls them homicide bombings. Which really is much more accurate. I never knew they weren't considered a Crime Against Humanity or a War Crime. Darned sure should be.

No! It is not more accurate. It is a distortion of reality to make their political agenda look correct. FOX's political agenda may be Right, but it is not correct.

When USAF B52's dropped bombs on Afghan villages, it was homicide bombing, but not suicide bombing.

When a Israeli fighter/bombers dropped bombs on Lebanese villages, it was homicide bombing, but not suicide bombing.

When USAF B2's dropped bombs on Iraqi villages, it was homicide bombing, but not suicide bombing.

When Muslims suicide bombers blow themselves up for their cause, (whether correct or not, justified or not), it is homicide bombing and it also a suicide bombing.

So unless we are willing to call the actions of the US Military and the Israeli Military; “homicide bombings”, we need to differentiate that type of bombing from the man in his truck who blows himself up or the man on the bus with TNT strapped around his body by calling those actions “suicide bombing”.

I know that some of those on the Right who will read what this post says, will see me as defending suicide bombers, though I have not in the least condoned their despicable actions.

However, I will say that the actions of the suicide bombers are no more despicable than the actions of the pilots of the US and Israeli planes that drop bombs on civilian cities. To label dead civilians as “collateral damage” is double-speak right out of Orwell's 1984. To say “we neutralized the target” is also quite Orwellian. WE ARE KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

The pilots who drop these bombs and the Military men who push buttons launching Cruise Missiles each killing innocent civilians are just as brain washed as the Muslim terrorists who strap on the suicide bomb pacts.

The reason that this belongs in this thread is because each of these groups are supported by their misinterpretations of their holy books which gives them a feeling of superiority and righteousness. Neither one is right. Each of these holy books talk of a God that wants peace, but neither can see that because they know that they are right. Yes, they both are Right as is FOX News, but none of them is correct.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Thank you!

What you said was "So if you can mock fundamentalists and compare them to Taliban, is it OK if I were to mock athiests and compare them to Hitler? Is that acceptable to you??"

Sue made a connection between fanatical fundamentalists and the Taliban. You made no comparable connection between athiests and Hitler.

But yes, you didn't actually compare the two. So I apologize for saying you did.

[Ron Cusano 0]

I have absolutely no problem with people challanging what I say. In fact I encourage it!! No one should accept anything I say just because I say it. If someone wishs to challange what I say, by all means let's have a lively discussion about it. If someone asks me why I believe something, I am more that glad to explain my understanding and reasoning. But, when I ask others to to the same, that's where the mocking and name calling starts and things break down. When someone makes a statement, do you believe it's wrong to ask them to give a reason for the statement?

Of course you do.

What you don't have is a right to not have your words challenged, or a right to not have people not like what you say and tell you so and why.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Just so we all understand. Hitler was obviously a very sick person, aside from 'claiming' to be a Christian/Catholic (heresay), however, there were Christians disposed of in the Holocaust as well. So, please don't use him as an example of what a Christian really is or should be. The anti-christ will also claim to be Christian.

And George W. BuSh let Christians be executed while governor of Texas (including some who found Jesus and were born again while on death-row), so does that mean the George W. BuSh is not a Christian?

 

If you answer no, then that defeats your argument about Hitler disposing of Christians, because the arguments are analogous (ie. If one is right, they both are right. If one is wrong, they both are wrong).

[Ron Cusano 0]

There is no contridiction between being a Christian and accepting the death penalty. I believe the two are harmoneous, expecially since Christians are told to obey the laws of the land. I doubt that any fundamentalist Christian believes that Hitler are actually a Christian, regardless of the label he put upon himself.

And George W. BuSh let Christians be executed while governor of Texas (including some who found Jesus and were born again while on death-row), so does that mean the George W. BuSh is not a Christian?

If you answer no, then that defeats your argument about Hitler disposing of Christians, because the arguments are analogous (ie. If one is right, they both are right. If one is wrong, they both are wrong).

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

There is no contridiction between being a Christian and accepting the death penalty. I believe the two are harmoneous, expecially since Christians are told to obey the laws of the land.

Hitler was obeying the law of the land also.:faint:

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I doubt that any fundamentalist Christian believes that Hitler are actually a Christian, regardless of the label he put upon himself.

Of course they wouldn't. It shows the holes in their reality.

[TommyO 5]

Ron, I have no problem with you stating your opinion and as you say you have no problem with others stating their opinions but then you go on to define how they should state said opinion or how they should respond. You cannot set the ground rules for the debate for the other participants.

You continue to try and enforce your rules of engagement and when others choose not to follow those rules you then insist that this proves you right.

 

Same for you Gadget, you can not force people to answer your questions, they will answer if they choose but silence is not acceptance nor should it be used as proof of your assumptions.

 

If I believe that the statements you make are foolish I can choose to respond in a fashion that best suits that sentiment. You may decide to ingnore me but the truth is how the words are presented is an important as the words themselves. The Author is also an important piece to the puzzle as well. As soon as you see the name TommyO you have already made some key assumptions to the content of my post. I propose that you have created an enviroment for yourself and when readers read your posts they have already made decisions on the value of the content and whether or not they agree.

 

You are responsible for the reactions of others to your posts but you insist it is the fault of others. Once again you blame those who baited and mocked you for your actions rather than accept that it was you who reacted in that fashion.

[Ron Cusano 0]

It was Hitler who made the law.

Hitler was not a Christian under the Biblical understanding.

Christian's are obligated to obey the law unless it contridicts God's law. The wonton killing of millions of Jews and others is certainly not in agreement with Christian Biblical understanding and practice. They certainly were not guilty of committing any crime worthy of death.

Hitler was obeying the law of the land also.:faint:

[Sunta 5]

As I have mentioned, I am not an atheist. I believe in a higher power that resides beyond us but also dwells within us. Whatever anyone wants to call that higher power is fine by me (Jesus, Buddah, Allah etc.), as long as they don't use their belief to oppress other people.

 

The issue I have with fundamentalist Christians as a group, is that they actively participate in making laws based on the bible, that oppress me, and that have stopped me from living my life in the way that I should have lived it.

 

The biggest example I can give of this is the fact that Gay marriage is not legal. The reason it's not legal is based on Christianity. Christianity is a belief system I don't share, and since in this country we are supposed to have seperation of church and state, I find it appalling that my life has been altered based on a belief that I know in my heart is a myth.

 

No one can ever know the pain I live with every day. Because being Gay was much less accepted 18 years ago (when I met my husband), I followed the heterosexual path and got married. I love my husband dearly, but in reality I should have ended up with a woman.

 

I do partially blame Christianity for contributing to the lack of acceptance that still pervades our society.

 

I go to work every day with my bosses, two women who have been together for 15 years. They have the most beautiful baby in the world. The fact that they are not allowed to get married breaks my heart every single day.

 

Yes, I do have rage and anger against fundamentalist Christians. I admit that. I do blame them for the death of Matthew Shepard, and I blame them for the thousands of Gay teens that commit suicide. I will never stop blaming them for preaching hate and intolerance of Gay people. Never.

 

I have no idea if anyone here shares my views, or if they have other deeply personal reasons for being angry at fundamentalist Christians, but that's where I'm coming from. It is difficult, almost impossible, to remain polite to people who are fundamentalist Christians because of my deeply personal life experience.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

It is a common trait of human nature to dislike the one who is most like yourself. Especially when you only see the similarities subconsciously. When you look in the mirror, it is easy to say that you are not like your reflection, because your reflection moves its right arm when you move your left, but it still has all your traits.

 

I wrote this on July 31st of last year and posted it at LBT.

 

Back in the 1960's, I saw an episode of Star Trek entitled "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" in which Captain Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise come across two humanoids; Bele and Lokai, from the planet Cheron. Each of them is half black and half white, starkly separated down the middle of his body. The only difference is one is black on the right side and white on the left, while the other is exactly the opposite. When I saw the show, I thought of it as a satire of race relations in the USA, but today I thought about it and realized that it might be more fittingly mocking the Jewish/Muslim battle now taking place in the Middle-East.

 

If either Bele or Lokai were to stand in front of a mirror, he would see the image of his most hated enemy. A mirror image of a man white on his left would be a man white on his right. That is so fitting of today's (and yesterday's and probably tomorrow's) senseless slaughter taking place in and around Israel, because the Israeli and Muslim enemies are mirror images of each other. Abraham (Genesis 16) had two son's, one by his wife's maid-servant Hagar and then one by his wife, Sarah. The two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, are generally considered to be the fathers of Islam and Judaism, so the fight between Jew and Muslim is basically a family feud.

 

In the "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" episode of Star Trek, when Bele and Lokai return to their home planet of Cheron, they find a scene not too unlike that of Lebanon. The whole planet is now lifeless except for the two of them who beam down to continue their fight to the finish. Must the Middle-East lead the rest of the world down the same path taken by Cheron?

 

Some will blame the problem on the Israelis. "They are bullying the Palestinians and the Lebanese", they will tell say.

 

Some will blame it on the Muslims. "Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups" they will tell say. "Iran and Syria are terrorist states arming terrorist groups" they will tell you.

 

Bele and Lokai also had their excuses. "I'm white on the right, can't you see the difference?"

 

Yet the Jews and the Muslims are both using the same tactic. Kill civilians until they put enough pressure on their leaders or until they choose new leaders to get their side to stop. But what has the despicable killing of civilians actually done? It has hardened each side's populace. There are many fewer Jews now ready to make piece with their Muslim brothers than there was three weeks ago.

 

You might remember that after 911, the Republicans and Democrats came together in the US Congress to give President BuSh anything he wanted. There was unity in the streets of the USA. People; Black, White, Hispanic, Democrat and Republican were then Americans first. Osama Bin Laden and Al-Quaida brought the political left and right of the USA together. Well Israel's killing of civilians in Lebanon has brought the Sunnis and Shiites of the Middle-East together as never before. Even the Christians of Lebanon are now united with both the Lebanese Sunnis and Shiites. And the Sunni counties that have been friends of the USA are now criticizing Israel (and the USA) as if those Sunni countries were Shiite.

 

President BuSh claims to believe in the sanctity of human life. He has vetoed legislation that would (in his opinion) destroy human life that is smaller than this period. Yet, he and Condoleezza Rice have proposed a piece-plan that must have "a lasting piece" which is a code-phrase for "when Israel wins". The Israeli prime minister told Ms. Rice that he might need 10 days to two weeks to win. Are we willing to watch both Israeli and Lebanese babies die for the next two weeks? Are those children any less valuable that the embryos that BuSh wants to protect?

 

Yesterday, a building in Lebanon was blown up with about 60 casualties. About 30 to 40 children died. About 600 Lebanese civilians including about 300 children have been killed in less than these 3 weeks. There have been about 30 Israeli civilians killed. Ms. Rice and Mr. BuSh claim that terrorism must be stomped out in the Middle-East (and around the world), but is it not terrorism to launch missile strikes, to fire artillery and use F16's to bomb populated areas? Hezbollah is wrong. Hezbollah is a terrorist group, but that does not make Israel right, nor does it make Israel any less of a terrorist country. People and countries must be judged, not by their friendship with the USA, nor the "Good Guy" sign that they fly, but by their actions. Israel is killing 20 Muslims (and Christians) in Lebanon for each Israeli that dies in the Hezbollah missile attacks. Doesn't "an eye for an eye" have any meaning to the Israelis? The bible does not say "20 eyes for an eye". Both sides are wrong.

 

Both sides must stop fighting now. The USA must insist that there be talks. The USA must drop the BS line that we don't talk to terrorists. Pretending that Hezbollah does not exist just keeps the killing of babies going on for a longer time.

 

Can't we learn something from Bele and Lokai, and Star Trek, or must the Earth wind up like the planet Cheron?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

As I have mentioned, I am not an atheist. I believe in a higher power that resides beyond us but also dwells within us. Whatever anyone wants to call that higher power is fine by me (Jesus, Buddah, Allah etc.), as long as they don't use their belief to oppress other people.

 

The issue I have with fundamentalist Christians as a group, is that they actively participate in making laws based on the bible, that oppress me, and that have stopped me from living my life in the way that I should have lived it.

 

The biggest example I can give of this is the fact that Gay marriage is not legal. The reason it's not legal is based on Christianity. Christianity is a belief system I don't share, and since in this country we are supposed to have seperation of church and state, I find it appalling that my life has been altered based on a belief that I know in my heart is a myth.

 

No one can ever know the pain I live with every day. Because being Gay was much less accepted 18 years ago (when I met my husband), I followed the heterosexual path and got married. I love my husband dearly, but in reality I should have ended up with a woman.

 

I do partially blame Christianity for contributing to the lack of acceptance that still pervades our society.

 

I go to work every day with my bosses, two women who have been together for 15 years. They have the most beautiful baby in the world. The fact that they are not allowed to get married breaks my heart every single day.

 

Yes, I do have rage and anger against fundamentalist Christians. I admit that. I do blame them for the death of Matthew Shepard, and I blame them for the thousands of Gay teens that commit suicide. I will never stop blaming them for preaching hate and intolerance of Gay people. Never.

 

I have no idea if anyone here shares my views, or if they have other deeply personal reasons for being angry at fundamentalist Christians, but that's where I'm coming from. It is difficult, almost impossible, to remain polite to people who are fundamentalist Christians because of my deeply personal life experience.

Thank You!!