Anti-Semitism In France!

GeezerSue · January 31, 2007

So if you can mock fundamentalists and compare them to Taliban, is it OK if I were to mock athiests and compare them to Hitler? Is that acceptable to you??

You can compare atheists to Tinkerbell or komodo dragons for all I care, for--at least--these reasons:

I don't speak for all atheists.
I don't claim to represent other atheists.
(I am not even in possession of the Atheists Secret Decoder Ring, which might allow us to discern what the rules--if there are any--REALLY mean in spite of what they say...all the while insisting that what they say is accurate.)
Since there is no discernable relationship between Hitler and atheists, such a comparison would just serve as MORE evidence that what you say makes no sense.
Nothing else you say is acceptable to me, why should we bring in stuff like "acceptability" at this point in our relationship?

But feel free...no skin off MY nose. See, Ron, MY agenda is not to prove to the world that I have the keys to the magic kingdom...my agenda is just pointing out naked emperors. March on in that pretty new suit!!

gadgetlady · January 31, 2007

You can compare atheists to Tinkerbell or komodo dragons for all I care, for--at least--these reasons:

I don't speak for all atheists.

I don't claim to represent other atheists.

(I am not even in possession of the Atheists Secret Decoder Ring, which might allow us to discern what the rules--if there are any--REALLY mean in spite of what they say...all the while insisting that what they say is accurate.)

Since there is no discernable relationship between Hitler and atheists, such a comparison would just serve as MORE evidence that what you say makes no sense.

Nothing else you say is acceptable to me, why should we bring in stuff like "acceptability" at this point in our relationship?

But feel free...no skin off MY nose. See, Ron, MY agenda is not to prove to the world that I have the keys to the magic kingdom...my agenda is just pointing out naked emperors. March on in that pretty new suit!!

There have been Christians on this thread who claim Ron does not speak for them due to what they see as his abrasive tone.

I'm wondering why none of the athiests on this thread will say the same about athiests who post things that are abrasive, mocking, condescending, and downright rude.

Ron Cusano · January 31, 2007

I am so sorry your family went through all that, and I am sorry that so much pain has been inflected on Jews in the name of Christianity. Any so-called Christian that could do that is no real follower of Jesus.

I hear what you are saying and will bear it in mind. Thanks for serious comments and thoughts.

I am cool with this, Cusano.
My own history has been fraught. Most of my father's side of the family perished in the Holocaust. My father was sufficiently traumatised by this that he didn't tell me that he was Jewish until I was 21. And though my parents were atheists, as I am myself, I was sent off to a boarding school run by Anglo-Catholic nuns for 8.5 years of my life.

Moreover, I grew up and still live in one of the large cities in Canada, a country that has been carefully trying to remake itself into a multi-cultural haven for some decades now. It had always been my own parents' desire and now it has become the Canadian urban style that everyone should be welcomed and respected into our environment. Much of this nice touchy-feely stuff has actually become enshrined in federal law over the past 25+ years. This is why same sex couples are permitted to engage in civil marriages up here.

But I digress. Most of my father's side of the family did not survive. They were destroyed during the Holocaust. The few who did make it carried grave psychological damage. This would include my father.

I lived in France. I saw evidence of anti-Semitism against both the Jews and the Arabs. From the reports which I have received since then, the situation for all Semites is deteriorating.

As for my own experience as a well educated and affluent downtown urbanite, well, once I switched from working in a well educated white collar university milieu to that of a blue collar unionized environment I was exposed to a lot of naked sexism and anti-Semitism. I could deal with the sexism but the anti-Semitism broke my heart. My father didn't want to tell me that he was Jewish. He was afraid of me being exposed to more of the same (even though I would only be considered Jewish to a racist). The dude was very damaged by his environment.

This is why I will always be anxious for you, Cusano, to have the right to express your love for your beliefs and it is obvious that you are a passionate individual. The deal is that you must give those of us who dissent equal respect and the reasons for this are multifold.

It is always true that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Should you wish to interest us in your passion, hectoring is certainly the wrong approach to take.

You must also understand that quite a few of us are in fact quite well-educated and thoughtful and thus we, too, want to be respected just as you yourself wish to be respected.

I wish to point out to you that you are speaking to a wide audience. You have no idea what the stories are behind our emotional and intellectual backgrounds. I, for instance, have just told you that most of my father's family perished during the Holocaust and that those who did manage to survive have issues of trust.

When you present your religious vision in such an insensitive and aggressive manner this can resurrect a lot of negative views about your religion. This is, in fact, the very thing which is causing a schism between many American Christians today. There are many moderate Christians who are very freaked out by the fundamentalist movement.

ousooner · January 31, 2007

There have been Christians on this thread who claim Ron does not speak for them due to what they see as his abrasive tone.
I'm wondering why none of the athiests on this thread will say the same about athiests who post things that are abrasive, mocking, condescending, and downright rude.

Ron and Sue are cut from the same mold, they just stand on the opposite sides of the isle. They both lik to egg others on and stir the pot. I much prefer the calmer more rational discussion and debate over that type of posting.

gadgetlady · January 31, 2007

Ron and Sue are cut from the same mold, they just stand on the opposite sides of the isle. They both lik to egg others on and stir the pot. I much prefer the calmer more rational discussion and debate over that type of posting.

I agree with you on rational discussion -- 100%. 200%, if that were rational. I'm just wondering why no one's calling Sue on it. I have my opinions as to why, but I thought I'd pose the question and see if my suspicions are right.

anonemouse · January 31, 2007

I can't speak for anyone else, but I kind of like seeing Ron get what he's giving. That's my only excuse. Immature? Probably. But deserved? You betcha.

Ron Cusano · January 31, 2007

And, of course, you are clean in all of this!! You took no Part in it!!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I kind of like seeing Ron get what he's giving. That's my only excuse. Immature? Probably. But deserved? You betcha.

ousooner · January 31, 2007

I can't speak for anyone else, but I kind of like seeing Ron get what he's giving. That's my only excuse. Immature? Probably. But deserved? You betcha.

The only problem with that is that people are getting hurt on both sides that have been respectfull. But I understand what your saying.

Alexandra · January 31, 2007

Simmer down, simmer down. I'm calling Sue on her tone--Sue, PLEASE refrain from making directly attacking remarks to other members. That really is uncalled for and unwelcome. Thank you.

Ron, once again I'd like to observe to you that you are reacting to people's comments in a wholly unreasonable way. It seems to me that you take anyone's critique of the Bible or Christianity personally, and once you take umbrage the whole cycle starts again. You can say anything you like about atheism and I won't bat an eyelash. I get that it's not your cup of tea. And you know what? THAT'S ALL RIGHT WITH ME.

Why can't you let others' belief systems be all right with you? Why do you have to defend Jesus? This conversation will continue to take these unpleasant turns unless you can allow others to express their feelings and not take it personally.

gadgetlady · January 31, 2007

I can't speak for anyone else, but I kind of like seeing Ron get what he's giving. That's my only excuse. Immature? Probably. But deserved? You betcha.

Thank you, laurend, for being honest. I mean that very sincerely and I have always found that to be true of you. My suspicion was that no one called Sue on it because they secretly liked what she was saying, and you've been brave enough to confirm that suspicion.

Alexandra · January 31, 2007

I rest my case. If anyone thinks there's no mockery going on on this thread, GeezerSue admits to it in this post. She justifies it by saying she's not mocking Christianity, but only fundamentalist Christianity, or fundamentalist Christians. And not only is there mockery, but because I am a fundamentalist Christian she is calling me "dangerous", "stupid", and "deserving of derision".

I believe she said she mocks "FANATIC FUNDAMENTALISTS OF ANY STRIPE, because they are dangerous and stupid."

It's abundantly clear from your posts that you are not a fanatic. Of any stripe. :biggrin1:

Ron Cusano · January 31, 2007

With all due respect, when someone some attacks Jesus and my faith, they are attacking me and I do take it personally. The can disbelieve and I have no problem with that, but when someone trys to make a mockery out of my faith, yeah, I will take it personally. There is no reason for it.

I have been told by some that the reason they are mocking is because they don't want to hear about what I believe. I thought I was free to say what I wanted here! Do other rules apply only to me??

If I said disparaging things about Jew, Arabs, Irish or blacks, I would expect them to take it personally too! Wouldn't you? Why can't we disagree without going for the throat?

Simmer down, simmer down. I'm calling Sue on her tone--Sue, PLEASE refrain from making directly attacking remarks to other members. That really is uncalled for and unwelcome. Thank you.
Ron, once again I'd like to observe to you that you are reacting to people's comments in a wholly unreasonable way. It seems to me that you take anyone's critique of the Bible or Christianity personally, and once you take umbrage the whole cycle starts again. You can say anything you like about atheism and I won't bat an eyelash. I get that it's not your cup of tea. And you know what? THAT'S ALL RIGHT WITH ME.

Why can't you let others' belief systems be all right with you? Why do you have to defend Jesus? This conversation will continue to take these unpleasant turns unless you can allow others to express their feelings and not take it personally.

anonemouse · January 31, 2007

And, of course, you are clean in all of this!! You took no Part in it!!

If you hadn't noticed, I haven't posted in this thread in a few days. And if you didn't remember my posts, I specifically said that I couldn't care less that you were a Christian, because it wasn't your religion I was criticizing.

gadgetlady · January 31, 2007

Why can't you let others' belief systems be all right with you? Why do you have to defend Jesus? This conversation will continue to take these unpleasant turns unless you can allow others to express their feelings and not take it personally.

Alexandra, I think Ron's said more than once that people have the right to believe whatever they want to believe. And I know a lot of people on this thread lump me and Ron together, so I'll say it again. People have the right to believe whatever they want.

That being said, don't we all think our belief is right? If an athiest didn't believe that there wasn't a God, would he still be an athiest? Doesn't he think he's right in his belief that there isn't a God? Don't people who don't take the Bible literally believe they are right in not doing so? And haven't they said as much on this thread? Similarly, why is it wrong for people who DO take the Bible literally to say that they believe others are wrong in their beliefs?

I am a libertarian. I believe people are entitled to do whatever they want to do (so long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples' rights) and believe whatever they want to believe. But that doesn't mean I have to believe that their actions and their beliefs are RIGHT. I just have to believe it's OK for them to do or have them. If you think drinking green tea will cure an infection, when really you need antibiotics, you are entitled to your opinion -- but it won't CURE you!

anonemouse · January 31, 2007

If I said disparaging things about Jew, Arabs, Irish or blacks, I would expect them to take it personally too! Wouldn't you?

Well, guess what! You HAVE said (or at least implied) disparaging things about Atheists. That was what started this whole thing, or do you not remember?