Anti-Semitism In France!

[Wheetsin 714]

Oh now I remember. It happens when I take the day off, and end up having to be on conference calls anyway. Silly Wheetsin.

[TruBlueSue 0]

I don't see anything I need to thorw gas bombs about...lol!!!

[BJean 16]

Cool OU. I won't worry about your waistline. I have to confess that I had lunch at my computer. Do not ask me what I had. I'll never confess. It's something that I brought home after getting a haircut. Yeah. Fast food. I'm thinking of a Green word. Putz. Not sure what it means but feels appropriate.

I agree that things got way out of hand here. Amazing how one person's input can be so harmful. I have thought from the begining that it was by design.

You were wise not to add fuel to the fire. Me, not so much.

[Ron Cusano 0]

And you call ME scary???

Under the BuSh administration, which is now allowing torture to extract evidence and then allowing the evidence to be used, I see a next step as torturing atheists, agnostics and non-completed Jews until they actually believe that the Bible is 100% true a la 1984.

'Do you remember,' he went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four"?'

'Yes,' said Winston.

O'Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.

'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?'

'Four.'

'And if the party says that it is not four but five -- then how many?'

'Four.'

The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston's body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O'Brien watched him, the four fingers still extended. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four.'

The needle went up to sixty.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!'

The needle must have risen again, but he did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the four fingers filled his vision. The fingers stood up before his eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably four.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!'

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Five! Five! Five!'

'No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?'

'Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!'

Abruptly he was sitting up with O'Brien's arm round his shoulders. He had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds. The bonds that had held his body down were loosened. He felt very cold, he was shaking uncontrollably, his teeth were chattering, the tears were rolling down his cheeks. For a moment he clung to O'Brien like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round his shoulders. He had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it.

'You are a slow learner, Winston,' said O'Brien gently.

'How can I help it?' he blubbered. 'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.'

'Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.'

He laid Winston down on the bed. The grip of his limbs tightened again, but the pain had ebbed away and the trembling had stopped, leaving him merely weak and cold. O'Brien motioned with his head to the man in the white coat, who had stood immobile throughout the proceedings. The man in the white coat bent down and looked closely into Winston's eyes, felt his pulse, laid an ear against his chest, tapped here and there, then he nodded to O'Brien.

'Again,' said O'Brien.

The pain flowed into Winston's body. The needle must be at seventy, seventy-five. He had shut his eyes this time. He knew that the fingers were still there, and still four. All that mattered was somehow to stay alive until the spasm was over. He had ceased to notice whether he was crying out or not. The pain lessened again. He opened his eyes. O'Brien had drawn back the lever.

'How many fingers, Winston?'

'Four. I suppose there are four. I would see five if I could. I am trying to see five.'

'Which do you wish: to persuade me that you see five, or really to see them?'

'Really to see them.'

'Again,' said O'Brien.

Perhaps the needle was eighty -- ninety. Winston could not intermittently remember why the pain was happening. Behind his screwed-up eyelids a forest of fingers seemed to be moving in a sort of dance, weaving in and out, disappearing behind one another and reappearing again. He was trying to count them, he could not remember why. He knew only that it was impossible to count them, and that this was somehow due to the mysterious identity between five and four. The pain died down again. When he opened his eyes it was to find that he was still seeing the same thing. Innumerable fingers, like moving trees, were still streaming past in either direction, crossing and recrossing. He shut his eyes again.

'How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?'

'I don't know. I don't know. You will kill me if you do that again. Four, five, six -- in all honesty I don't know.'

'Better,' said O'Brien.

A needle slid into Winston's arm. Almost in the same instant a blissful, healing warmth spread all through his body. The pain was already half-forgotten. He opened his eyes and looked up gratefully at O'Brien. At sight of the heavy, lined face, so ugly and so intelligent, his heart seemed to turn over. If he could have moved he would have stretched out a hand and laid it on O'Brien arm. He had never loved him so deeply as at this moment, and not merely because he had stopped the pain. The old feeling, that it bottom it did not matter whether O'Brien was a friend or an enemy, had come back. O'Brien was a person who could be talked to. Perhaps one did not want to be loved so much as to be understood. O'Brien had tortured him to the edge of lunacy, and in a little while, it was certain, he would send him to his death. It made no difference. In some sense that went deeper than friendship, they were intimates: somewhere or other, although the actual words might never be spoken, there was a place where they could meet and talk. O'Brien was looking down at him with an expression which suggested that the same thought might be in his own mind. When he spoke it was in an easy, conversational tone.

'Do you know where you are, Winston?' he said.

'I don't know. I can guess. In the Ministry of Love.'

'Just now I held up the fingers of my hand to you. You saw five fingers. Do you remember that?'

'Yes.'

O'Brien held up the fingers of his left hand, with the thumb concealed.

'There are five fingers there. Do you see five fingers?'

'Yes.'

And he did see them , for a fleeting instant, before the scenery of his mind changed. He saw five fingers, and there was no deformity.

Praise the Lord. BuSh shall set us free and gain us entry into Heaven.

[Ron Cusano 0]

You know, if you ever posted something serious I would be shocked. As a matter of fact, Jesus healed lepers who, by nature of their disease have missings and rotting parts.

Your sarcastic, mindless comments, which are all you apparently are capible of, are not worthy of a reply.

Which "explains" why God NEVER, EVER, EVER heal amputees, right. Either it wasn't in this all powerful and loving God's plan, OR he's imaginary and can't cure hiccups.

I didn't say--or even IMPLY--that your story wasn't true...merely that you were using it as a metaphor. (You get that, right?)

So, if God heals what he wants healed and things that are NOT healed are NOT healed because he doesn't want them healed--and, assuming that God mostly gets what he wants, doesn't that STILL mean that medical insurance is a waste of money...money that you could be using to publish more tracts to convert more Jews?

So, do you have medical insurance and--if you do--doesn't that mean that either...you don't trust God to heal what YOU need healed OR you are going to try to go against God's will and get doctors to try to heal stuff God won't heal on his own?

Curious, huh?

[lisah25 3]

Your sarcastic, mindless comments, which are all you apparently are capible of, are not worthy of a reply.

This isn't the first time you posted that something isn't worthy of a reply, yet you obviously think it is.

Am I nitpicking? Not really. Because I think it shows something about you. You want the last word. You want to get a dig in, but appear to be above it all. My opinion only of course.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Isn't it amazing that so many of you proud athiests have such a problem with my "attitude" and how I "say things", but you see nothing wrong with making a mockery out of my faith.

You don't like the things that I say, but you can say anything you want! You claim that you don't have a problem with "what" I say, by rather with "how" I say it". You lie through your teeth, and we certainly know who the father of lies is, don't we!!

The truth is, you are hypocrites of the worst kind. You can say the most mocking, hurting and insensitive things about God, Jesus and the foundational truths of the Bible, but let me refer to one of you as a "fool", and you go into a blind rage. What a sad lot you are!

Sadly, some of the moderators here, who relish the "athiest" title are among the worst of the lot. You know what, you are not going to drive away the few Christians here no matter what you say or how much you try to offend. We're not going anywhere, so rant away!!

[gadgetlady 4]

gadgetlady has been having one heck of a time getting anyone to respond to one specific question that she's been repeatedly asking. If she would really like everyone to focus on that question, perhaps she would have better luck starting a thread about it, being very specific and direct in her verbage.

I have my hands full with the questions I have chosen to address here. I'm not interested in answering her question. Obviously there are some others who feel the same way. But it doesn't mean that there are no people willing to answer the question and expend the energy to discuss it with her.

I disagree. There is a reason I asked the question WITHIN this thread, rather than starting another thread. I think the reason people are unwilling to answer is because they're more comfortable attacking others than they are defending or even explaining their own beliefs.

Edited to add: There are some on this thread that HAVE explained their own beliefs. But none of those was a professed Christian who also didn't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[lisah25 3]

Isn't it amazing that so many of you proud athiests have such a problem with my "attitude" and how I "say things", but you see nothing wrong with making a mockery out of my faith.

You don't like the things that I say, but you can say anything you want! You claim that you don't have a problem with "what" I say, by rather with "how" I say it". You lie through your teeth, and we certainly know who the father of lies is, don't we!!

The truth is, you are hypocrites of the worst kind. You can say the most mocking, hurting and insensitive things about God, Jesus and the foundational truths of the Bible, but let me refer to one of you as a "fool", and you go into a blind rage. What a sad lot you are!

Sadly, some of the moderators here, who relish the "athiest" title are among the worst of the lot. You know what, you are not going to drive away the few Christians here no matter what you say or how much you try to offend. We're not going anywhere, so rant away!!

Wow. Just wow.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Truth hurts doesn't it! I notice that no one is denying it

Wow. Just wow.

[BJean 16]

lisa25: Wow. Double wow! I wonder what they had for lunch. I won't be having what they're having.

[lisah25 3]

Truth hurts doesn't it! I notice that no one is denying it

Why should they? You don't listen.

Oh, and you just posted it. Most probably haven't read it.

[BJean 16]

Ron: I won't dignify your accusations with a denial. I see that the sense of civility that was achieved here has flown right out the window.

You're a fool and a sad little man. Are you happy now?

[green 6]

Isn't it amazing that so many of you proud athiests have such a problem with my "attitude" and how I "say things", but you see nothing wrong with making a mockery out of my faith.

You don't like the things that I say, but you can say anything you want! You claim that you don't have a problem with "what" I say, by rather with "how" I say it". You lie through your teeth, and we certainly know who the father of lies is, don't we!!

The truth is, you are hypocrites of the worst kind. You can say the most mocking, hurting and insensitive things about God, Jesus and the foundational truths of the Bible, but let me refer to one of you as a "fool", and you go into a blind rage. What a sad lot you are!

Sadly, some of the moderators here, who relish the "athiest" title are among the worst of the lot. You know what, you are not going to drive away the few Christians here no matter what you say or how much you try to offend. We're not going anywhere, so rant away!!

Cusano, the issue as to who the hypocrite might be depends on what terrain the given individual is occupying. You have made note of proud atheists in your recent post. I would say that you yourself are a proud Christian; why should you diss those who hold different views when you know that this is not respectful and is not the manner in which you would wish to be treated? Does not Jesus say something along the lines of do unto others as you would have done unto yourself?

You might, moreover, take note that the debate between the non-believers and the believers has become a non-starter over these past pages. The discussion has, by and large, developed into one of issues of belief between Christians. To re-introduce the largely silent Greek chorus of resident atheists into the discussion at this point carries the stench of desperation. It is a red herring.

As to the powerful and powerfully strange material which TOM introduced into this discussion, well, this is material which was drawn from an interesting and controversial novel: the title of this novel is 1984.

[gadgetlady 4]

Isn't it amazing that so many of you proud athiests have such a problem with my "attitude" and how I "say things", but you see nothing wrong with making a mockery out of my faith.

I agree with Ron. I've said the same thing on other threads, too. While many might consider his method abrasive and have said as much, they have yet also mocked his beliefs. It seems that it is perfectly acceptable to mock Christianity, but nothing else. Taking RON out of the equation and how you all feel about him personally, that fact remains.