Anti-Semitism In France!

[BJean 16]

Ron if someone here believed in the Qur'an and all of its' teachings (not that anyone posting here does, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that someone does), and they belabored the point that the God of Islam is the same God that you worship, and you disagreed with them, but they would not let it go and kept insisting, in a louder and more coarse voice that their God is the same God because the Qua'ran proves it to be true and furthermore that your Bible cannot be taken literally because it is written by too many different voices and translated too many times, would you take it as an affront to your own beliefs and be insulted by their demeanor, appalled at their insistence of having proof for something that you believe is untrue? Would you be mystified by the fact that they continue to argue until they're blue in the face and get so angry that they make so many mistakes in their writing and spelling that their discourse is often difficult to read and understand and would you think that having them repeat over and over that you are an infidel, are doomed to hell and that they know that it is a fact because the Qur'an proves and promises them that they are right, would those arguments do one thing to change your mind about your belief in the Bible or that Jesus is your Savior?

No? Well then, why are you continuing this discourse? For many of us it seems that you are hell-bent on trying to make yourself feel good about you, or perphaps you just like the sound of your own arguments and the more often you can repeat it, the better you like it. It also seems that the more strident the contest, the happier you are.

[Ron Cusano 0]

If such a senerio were to occur, I would be prepared to offer reasons and evidence with regard to why I believe what I do. No one can form a belief without having some reason(s) as to why you reach that conclusion. Much of what I have heard have been only opinions with no foundation to back them up.

If someone made the claims that you mentioned, I would welcome an open and honest dialog from both viewpoints. This occurs all the time. It's called "apoligetics"!

If someone, including me, were to offer only opinion without reason, I would, and I would expect you, to quickly discount it. If I truly believe that the Bible is the only truth, and Jesus the only way, and the God of the Bible the only God, then I would be a hypocrite if I compromised on that position. It would no longer be an absolute belief, it would only be conjecture. There can be no compromise on the Word of God from a true Biblical Christian prospective.

Ron if someone here believed in the Qur'an and all of its' teachings (not that anyone posting here does, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that someone does), and they belabored the point that the God of Islam is the same God that you worship, and you disagreed with them, but they would not let it go and kept insisting, in a louder and more coarse voice that their God is the same God because the Qua'ran proves it to be true and furthermore that your Bible cannot be taken literally because it is written by too many different voices and translated too many times, would you take it as an affront to your own beliefs and be insulted by their demeanor, appalled at their insistence of having proof for something that you believe is untrue? Would you be mystified by the fact that they continue to argue until they're blue in the face and get so angry that they make so many mistakes in their writing and spelling that their discourse is often difficult to read and understand and would you think that having them repeat over and over that you are an infidel, are doomed to hell and that they know that it is a fact because the Qur'an proves and promises them that they are right, would those arguments do one thing to change your mind about your belief in the Bible or that Jesus is your Savior?

No? Well then, why are you continuing this discourse? For many of us it seems that you are hell-bent on trying to make yourself feel good about you, or perphaps you just like the sound of your own arguments and the more often you can repeat it, the better you like it. It also seems that the more strident the contest, the happier you are.

[BJean 16]

Please disregard my just previous post. TOM said it much better than I and lisah25 is a very pleasant soul, whom I wholeheartedly respect.

I don't believe that one has any credibility when one says, I respect other people's beliefs and then that person comdemns the other person to hell (oh yeah, THEY aren't doing the comdemning, God is!!!!) If you can't hear God's voice here (through Ron), then you are doomed!!!!!

[Ron Cusano 0]

Perhaps you need to listen to the voice of God a little harder then!!

Jesus said that,"The only way to the Father is through the Son"! The Bible also say's "the wages of sin is death" and that "no one doeth good, no not one"! Again, if you don't agree with these things, your argument is with the author. It's a person's sin that condemns him to Hell, certainly not me! Forget what I say, it doesn't matter, listen to what God says! Open a Bible and read it for yourself!!

And yes, Tom is very pleasant and sweet!

Please disregard my just previous post. TOM said it much better than I and lisah25 is a very pleasant soul, whom I wholeheartedly respect.

I don't believe that one has any credibility when one says, I respect other people's beliefs and then that person comdemns the other person to hell (oh yeah, THEY aren't doing the comdemning, God is!!!!) If you can't hear God's voice here (through Ron), then you are doomed!!!!!

[BJean 16]

Oops. you type must faster than I - probably think much faster too.

You answered my post. Not my question, but you did respond.

The thing that several people who post here do not seem to grasp is that no one is required or even compelled to cite reasons or backup data for what they believe. Anyone can post anything, however passionate or dispassionate or right or wrong or indifferent. If you choose to ignore or take their stated beliefs with a grain of salt or less, say you think it's as important a pimple on a gnat's butt, that is your prerogative. Everyone can inisist on proof, but no one is mandated to provide it.

Too often the proof that is submitted to back up people's statements here is full of bias and totally open to interpretation. If you are trying to win people over to your side of an argument, then it is probably necessary and important, but it is not a rule and no one should be condemned for choosing not to play the game that way. I have my beliefs and if you choose not to join me in those beliefs, it does not harm me one way or the other. I just enjoy posting and exchanging thoughts and ideas. Sorry if it doesn't jibe with your way of doing business here.

[BJean 16]

Oh, I said lisah25 is sweet. Tom is smart. He may be sweet too, and I suspect that he is. I am glad that you feel that way. It definitely looks good on you!

It is for me to interpret the Bible for me. It is for me to choose when I have discourse with God. He makes his presence known to me in ways that do not include someone on LBT screaming in mine or other people's face.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Of course there is no rules about backing up what you say, and anyone is allowed to say whatever they choose. That goes without saying.

My point is, if we are to have serious discussion about ANYTHING, then it is reasonable to expect ANYONE to give good reason for the things they say. Otherwise, you don't have a discussion, you have everyone making unfounded statements.

If someone is telling me that they believe the Qur'an to be a holy book and that the God is Islam is the same as the God of the Bible, why should anyone believe them unless they can good reason for their statement? Without good reason, it is just so many words.

If some can't back-up claims or statement they make, I have every right to discount them and disagree with them. I would expect people to demand no less from me.

Oops. you type must faster than I - probably think much faster too.

You answered my post. Not my question, but you did respond.

The thing that several people who post here do not seem to grasp is that no one is required or even compelled to cite reasons or backup data for what they believe. Anyone can post anything, however passionate or dispassionate or right or wrong or indifferent. If you choose to ignore or take their stated beliefs with a grain of salt or less, say you think it's as important a pimple on a gnat's butt, that is your prerogative. Everyone can inisist on proof, but no one is mandated to provide it.

Too often the proof that is submitted to back up people's statements here is full of bias and totally open to interpretation. If you are trying to win people over to your side of an argument, then it is probably necessary and important, but it is not a rule and no one should be condemned for choosing not to play the game that way. I have my beliefs and if you choose not to join me in those beliefs, it does not harm me one way or the other. I just enjoy posting and exchanging thoughts and ideas. Sorry if it doesn't jibe with your way of doing business here.

[mdicurn 0]

I am really new here, but I would love to know how a thread about Antisemitism in France got subjugated into all out religious warfare. We all believe strongly in how we believe. I doubt very seriously that anyone has convinced anyone to change any opinions about anything through out the 37 pages of this thread.

I understand that it is a directive to be a missionary and present The Word to those who have never heard it but at some point you must realize that the proselytizing has become not only unconstructive but detrimental to your desire for someone to hear The Word. The focus then becomes less about the The Word itself and more about the messenger. Once that happens it is very difficult to ressurect the desire to hear it in the first place.

[Wheetsin 714]

I am really new here, but I would love to know how a thread about Antisemitism in France got subjugated into all out religious warfare.

Honestly? It's kind of par for the course. Not "warfare", of course, but a topic -- especially in RnR -- rarely ends in the same form that it began. It makes for an interesting sort of conversational evolution.

[BJean 16]

Ron we finally agree on something! Rules of engagement for one.

But as for statements being "unfounded" you can choose to believe that someone's statement is true or untrue, but you may never know if they have valid reasons for that statement unless they choose to reveal them to you. Those kinds of accusations and demands and that kind of authoritative argument is just what puts people off. Scripture quoting may be the only way you feel that someone has to back up their beliefs, but beliefs are beliefs based on whatever the believer chooses to base them on. People do not have to play by your rules.

You don't have to play with them, of course, but you cannot demand these things and say that they are fools if they do not choose to provide YOU WITH THEIR PROOF. Just respectfully disagree. You are not our God. We will not sit before you on Judgement Day. You have no authority, or even necessarily credibility, for us. And to cite scriptures and say that you are the authority on their meaning and what God or an Apostle meant when they said it, just doesn't hold Water for many of us. Not only that but it is offensive.

My primary concern is that you tend to turn people away from, not toward your beliefs - not because of your citing scripture or due to you sharing your beliefs, but because you present yourself as an authority because you say that you have studied for 30 years and have an ability to state what you believe as the Word of God, with absolute PROOF, because you've decided something from the Bible or a theologian or someone else says that it is PROOF. In the end, we all believe that faith is what is important in this argument. PROOF, as you present it, is subjective.

I know, you're going to tell me again that it isn't YOU who is providing proof, it's the Bible. Well we're telling you that you are howling in the wind.

[BJean 16]

mdicurn: You make a good point. That is precisely why I have participated here.

[mdicurn 0]

Honestly? It's kind of par for the course. Not "warfare", of course, but a topic -- especially in RnR -- rarely ends in the same form that it began. It makes for an interesting sort of conversational evolution.

Thanks Wheetsin! I guess I should start buying my Xanax and rubber mallets now for the 2008 Presidential Election then, huh?

:faint:

[Sunta 5]

Does anyone else find it fascinating that this thread is a microcosm of how religion/God has been the root cause of wars throughout history?

Something that is supposed to be about peace and love...how does it always seem to cause fighting and screaming, hatred, and anger?

Why is that?

Could it be that the people who are most drawn to any kind of fundamentalism are also the people who are most prone to instability and craziness?

[Ron Cusano 0]

Come on BJean,

Anything that can not be substanciated is "unfounded"! For someone to make a statement and not be willing to share why they made the statement makes little sense to me. Why make the statement in the first place? If I told you they discovered a second moon, would you just accept that, or would you want to know how I know that?? Do the rules change just because we are talking about religion??

I don't make any claims of authority about myself, I don't claim to know it all, and I am not above learning new things, but to believe differently, I need a reason to do so. Wouldn't you?

I cite scripture because according to my belief, scripture is the final word on all matters spiritual. I don't ask anyone to believe anything that I say or think. I invite them to look in the Bible and let the Bible speak to them. You keep making this about me and it's not. I believe that you and others here are raging mad that I dare claim that the Bible is the only way to a knowledge of God, and again, I make no apoligy for that. You don't have to believe it or accept it, nevertheless, I believe it to be true.

Ron we finally agree on something! Rules of engagement for one.

But as for statements being "unfounded" you can choose to believe that someone's statement is true or untrue, but you may never know if they have valid reasons for that statement unless they choose to reveal them to you. Those kinds of accusations and demands and that kind of authoritative argument is just what puts people off. Scripture quoting may be the only way you feel that someone has to back up their beliefs, but beliefs are beliefs based on whatever the believer chooses to base them on. People do not have to play by your rules.

You don't have to play with them, of course, but you cannot demand these things and say that they are fools if they do not choose to provide YOU WITH THEIR PROOF. Just respectfully disagree. You are not our God. We will not sit before you on Judgement Day. You have no authority, or even necessarily credibility, for us. And to cite scriptures and say that you are the authority on their meaning and what God or an Apostle meant when they said it, just doesn't hold Water for many of us. Not only that but it is offensive.

My primary concern is that you tend to turn people away from, not toward your beliefs - not because of your citing scripture or due to you sharing your beliefs, but because you present yourself as an authority because you say that you have studied for 30 years and have an ability to state what you believe as the Word of God, with absolute PROOF, because you've decided something from the Bible or a theologian or someone else says that it is PROOF. In the end, we all believe that faith is what is important in this argument. PROOF, as you present it, is subjective.

I know, you're going to tell me again that it isn't YOU who is providing proof, it's the Bible. Well we're telling you that you are howling in the wind.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Or could it be that those who oppose the truth are the sourse of the hatred and rebellion against God?

Does anyone else find it fascinating that this thread is a microcosm of how religion/God has been the root cause of wars throughout history?

Something that is supposed to be about peace and love...how does it always seem to cause fighting and screaming, hatred, and anger?

Why is that?

Could it be that the people who are most drawn to any kind of fundamentalism are also the people who are most prone to instability and craziness?