Anti-Semitism In France!

[Ron Cusano 0]

Let me use an analogy to answer you! You are a parent! You conceive a child knowing that the child will do wrong, get into trouble, get sick and eventually die. Yet you still create this child, wanting only the best for your child.

God is our Father and created us with foreknowledge of what we would do, because He wanted us to worship Him and enjoy fellowship with Him. Could he have created us never to have the choice to sin and disobey? Yes, He could have, but how would that glorify Him if we had no choice in how we acted? It would be like having a robot that was programed to do only what you wanted, completely devoid of love and respect for you. God didn't create robots, He created us in His spiritual image to worship, obey and fellowship with Him.

That doesn't really answer my question, maybe I'm not asking it clearly.

Why did God, who could have created us any way He wanted, create us know that we would choose sin, choose to disobey Him and suffer for it?

[lisah25 3]

Let me use an analogy to answer you! You are a parent! You conceive a child knowing that the child will do wrong, get into trouble, get sick and eventually die. Yet you still create this child, wanting only the best for your child.

I've always like the God as our Father image. However, when I conceive a child, I have limited control(if any) over what characteristics he/she will be born with. God OTHO could have given us, His creations, any charactistics He choose, He had total creative control so to speak.

God is our Father and created us with foreknowledge of what we would do, because He wanted us to worship Him and enjoy fellowship with Him. Could he have created us never to have the choice to sin and disobey? Yes, He could have, but how would that glorify Him if we had no choice in how we acted? It would be like having a robot that was programed to do only what you wanted, completely devoid of love and respect for you. God didn't create robots, He created us in His spiritual image to worship, obey and fellowship with Him.

It sounds like you are saying God created us imperfect and thus subject to suffereing so that we would worship Him in the way He wants, to provide Him with glory? Hum.

[Ron Cusano 0]

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

I've always like the God as our Father image. However, when I conceive a child, I have limited control(if any) over what characteristics he/she will be born with. God OTHO could have given us, His creations, any charactistics He choose, He had total creative control so to speak.

It sounds like you are saying God created us imperfect and thus subject to suffereing so that we would worship Him in the way He wants, to provide Him with glory? Hum.

[GeezerSue 7]

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

So...he created Adam and Eve...and they were perfect and we were perfect and then Adam and Eve sinned and now we DESERVE to get AIDS and little children DESERVE cancer because Adam and Eve sinned...just the way God knew they would when he created them..so, the little kids never stood a chance, right?

[Ron Cusano 0]

You have a wonderful way of twisting things! He created Adam perfect. His whole creation was perfect. Man used his free will to disobey God and sin entered into God's perfect creation and were made imperfect.

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

God, however, provided a way out . . . through Jesus! The "little kids" and us do stand a chance because of what Jesus did. In fact it's more that a chance, it's a certainty to those who embrace the Messiah.

God is not the bad guy here! We are! Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die! The fact of the matter is, we have ALL SINNED, so we are living the consequesces. You do know that you have sinned, don't you!!

So...he created Adam and Eve...and they were perfect and we were perfect and then Adam and Eve sinned and now we DESERVE to get AIDS and little children DESERVE cancer because Adam and Eve sinned...just the way God knew they would when he created them..so, the little kids never stood a chance, right?

[lisah25 3]

No, not at all! He created us perfect; made in His image. We became imperfect after man disobeyed and sinned. We know our children will be imperfect but we create them with the ability to choose between ring and wrong. They have a choice.

But how can you say we were created perfect if we had the cabability to disobey and sin? If I could have had my niece born perfect, so that she would never make a mistake and get hurt or sick, I might have made that happen.

For a bit of a disclaimer here, I don’t pretend to have the understanding needed to explain God and His choices. Some of it doesn’t, and won’t, make sense to me. I can live with that, my faith is beyond what I can explain. I think of God as a Father. And I accept that kids don’t understand everything their parents do, why they do it. So that’s how I feel.

I am always curious to hear what other people think. Their opinions on the things I have questions about. I'm finding this a very interesting conversation.

[lisah25 3]

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

But I wouldn't pass it on if I had the choice not to, if I knew during creation of that child I could remove that disease, why wouldn't I?

God is not the bad guy here! We are!

Ah, but the catch is that God created the game and set up the rules. We then have to play by them.

[Wheetsin 714]

Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die!

Seems to contradict:

The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

So sin is what... contagious? (Not twisting, asking for clarification).

A fetus has a disease in utero, that was not passed directly from the mother. We'll call it "spontaneous" disease. It happens all the time. Genetic defects are one of the most likely causes. That fetus has never sinned. It hasn't even breathed. Yet it is sentenced to death. Because of what? It's mother or father's sins? Adam's?

You say someone who has never sinned would never get sick and die. But it happenes every day.

[GeezerSue 7]

You have a wonderful way of twisting things! He created Adam perfect. His whole creation was perfect. Man used his free will to disobey God and sin entered into God's perfect creation and were made imperfect.

If you had some horrible disease, had a child and it was passed on to the child, the child has to live with it weather he deserved it or not. The world and all that live in it are contaminated by sin and we live the consequences of that sin.

God, however, provided a way out . . . through Jesus! The "little kids" and us do stand a chance because of what Jesus did. In fact it's more that a chance, it's a certainty to those who embrace the Messiah.

God is not the bad guy here! We are! Of course, if you are perfect and have never sinned, then you would never get sick and die! The fact of the matter is, we have ALL SINNED, so we are living the consequesces. You do know that you have sinned, don't you!!

So, man's free will was part of a perfect creation...even though the one creating it knew that man's exercise of free will would cause pain and suffering even to the most innocent?

Not too perfect a plan, then, was it? You can't have it both ways.

Here's a simpler explanation and one that DOES make sense. There is no God. Prayer is superstition. Man, primitive man, at that, created Gods to explain things he couldn't understand. People cling to a belief in the supernatural to help explain the things they can't understand and because they cannot deal with the notion that they have no control and that no one is in charge of what happens and when it's over, it's over.

[Ron Cusano 0]

Perfection in the biblical sense means without sin or corruption. Adam was created without sin or corruption . . . perfect in every way. Being perfect, or sinless, does not mean that Adam did not have the capcity to sin. Only that he was tainted by it until he choose to sin.

Perfection does not mean without having free choice. The Bible tells us that Saten was created without sin, but because of pride, rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven.

If you had the ability to make your niece be born without the chance of ever making a mistake or doing something wrong, then how would that be a testimony to her parents ability to raise her and nurture her. She would need no teaching, education, moral foundation, etc. She would be nothing more that a robot, a human figure without the ability to make decisions and choices. God, in His wisdom, chose not to make us that way. I don't knbow all the reasons why He did that because I don't know th whole mind of God, I just know that He did!!

Like you, I don't pretend to know everything about God. Anyone who tells you he does is a liar!

But how can you say we were created perfect if we had the cabability to disobey and sin? If I could have had my niece born perfect, so that she would never make a mistake and get hurt or sick, I might have made that happen.

For a bit of a disclaimer here, I don’t pretend to have the understanding needed to explain God and His choices. Some of it doesn’t, and won’t, make sense to me. I can live with that, my faith is beyond what I can explain. I think of God as a Father. And I accept that kids don’t understand everything their parents do, why they do it. So that’s how I feel.

I am always curious to hear what other people think. Their opinions on the things I have questions about. I'm finding this a very interesting conversation.

[lisah25 3]

If you had the ability to make your niece be born without the chance of ever making a mistake or doing something wrong, then how would that be a testimony to her parents ability to raise her and nurture her.

So I'm back to the idea that God made us, knowing the choices we'd make and the suffereing it would lead to, for His own Glory? Hum, not sure about that one.

[BJean 16]

Alexandra- I agree, and thanks for the comment directed my way.

Have you noticed that lisah25 has been one of the "softest spoken" people here? She just keeps her cool, enjoys the discussion, and keeps asking questions - very relevant questions. I'm proud of you lisah25. You may not know that you have support here, but you certainly do.

Ron: I am glad that we have achieved peace between us, right here on earth.

[lisah25 3]

Thanks BJean! It's nice to know.

I think this thread has taken a nice turn, I like that we can all get along and have discussions and still disagree.

[Ron Cusano 0]

God did not create us to make wrong choices and to suffer and is not glorified by our sin. That was never said. It is something you are reading into it.

We were made to make good choices and live in a paradise existance with Him. Yes he foreknew, but it was still up to us to make the choice. Just as it is up to you to accept or reject Him now.

God receives the glory when we accept His free gift of salvation and make GOOD choices and attempt to lead holy lives.

I have been repeating this over and over again, but you apparently are not grasping it.

So I'm back to the idea that God made us, knowing the choices we'd make and the suffereing it would lead to, for His own Glory? Hum, not sure about that one.

[Ron Cusano 0]

As do I!! God bless!

Thanks BJean! It's nice to know.

I think this thread has taken a nice turn, I like that we can all get along and have discussions and still disagree.