For my fellow vets - has anyone tried to revert back to post-op style eating (600cals,>30g carbs, <60gprotein) with any success?

[Globetrotter 1,340]

I am 3 years out, I have recently been doing the 5:2 method to reestablish weight loss, I've had some regain in the past year due to trauma and stress.

Has anyone out there been on "regular" calories (<1200 a day) and then decided to go back to severe low cal, or even go back to liquids/mushies? I don't mean a 5 day pouch test reset, but an actual return to post-op eating as a means to rejuvenate their weight loss?

As I have examined my weight loss history I have discovered that, even though my exercise was diligent and my food tracking was faithful and my carbs remained low - as my calories increased, my weight loss slowed down to a crawl and then stopped altogether. The only time I lost reasonably well was when I was 800 or less cals a day, 40 or less grams of carbs a day, and 70g's Protein.

Now, it could just be a coincidence that I was eating that way when I was losing the best, it could easily have been just a result of still being in my honeymoon phase ...

thoughts, ideas, opinions?

[swizzly 901]

I know it's practically a cliche, but stress can physically, LITERALLY block you losing weight, and in fact CAUSE weight gain despite caloric intake/exercise levels. I know you're in a stressful situation in general, can you add in any meditation or Yoga or anything to turn off the adrenals a bit?

I just listened to this podcast, says it's only available for 24 hours (from when, I don't know) -- and I had to use a work VPN via a US server to get it to play...but it talks all about how stress and cortisol and adrenal overload impacts weight severely (also causes chronic inflammation and malnutrition, bad digestion, autoimmune symptoms increase, etc.). In case you want to try listening to it... http://mindvalley.on...1503/1378361422

I would definitely not revert to post-op eating, it's not sustainable or healthy over the longer term, which is why we only do it for a short while post-op. I think it's a point in time to lose like that, not that it's healthily do-able in the longer term. You need nutrition and self-care, GT, not to starve yourself.

[Fiddleman 4,376]

Hi Globetrotter-

I know you have not had the success you were looking for on the 5:2 plan, but have you considered the 16:8 intermittent fasting strategy combined with high intensity training? That is 16 hours of fasting and 8 hours of feeding. Many have been really successful with this approach in the body building segment.

The idea is the high intensity training depletes the muscles of stored glycogen (think empty on the gas tank), forcing your muscles to go into metabolic overdrive during the intermittent fast by converting stored fat into glycogen in very rapid cycles. You might consider this as a way to get into peak conditioning in a relatively short time period ( 6 weeks) and then cycle off it. You have to eat during the feed and eat in a way that is going to optimize the rapid refill of glycogen stores. You do have to bust out your training sessions ( think HITT, burst or whatever). You have to eat. Nutrition is very important. while not 100% positive from my research, i think this plan works the best if you eat Paleo style (minimize bread, dairy,sugar. in general, think low glycemic index when choosing your carbs). Your training sessions do not need to be long nor do they need to be everyday, if you bust through Tabata style strength training.

With all that said, no, I do not recommend you going back to a starvation diet. It just kills your metabolism and pushes cortisol through the roof. This leads to increased storage of fat and an increase in auto immune issues if done for too long. Our bodies are made to eat.

This is just a suggestion based on some research I have been doing for you on the side.

[Globetrotter 1,340]

I hear you, I accept the wisdom in the advice. However..

There is rather alarming research on the deliterious effects of intermitent (sp) fasting for women, all that great research out there on how awesome fasting is, has been done almost exclusively on males.

Yeah, my body was made to eat. And eat and eat and eat ... If my body was so naturally self-caretaking, I never would have needed surgery in the first place, my wiring is different.

If being of a severely low cal diet for say, 3 months, was as devastating as you make it sound, then why is it "okay" in the months after post-op? It's not like some magic fairy cloud of protection settles upon you during that time, or even that your body is different - after all they only removed some stomach, not a Roux-Y, not a DS. Please explain why doing it then is okay, and doing it now is not.

Also, there's so much preaching on VSG, preach preach preach, to listen to your body, your body will tell you what it needs, blah blah blahhhhhh. Usually from people who have reached goal relatively swiftly. Well, my body has been talking to me for 2 years, trying to get me to realize that the only way I lose weight is on very low calorie and very low carb. Am I only allowed to listen to my body if it's giving me a message that the VST gurus approve?

I am not a 6'4" male with male hormones, I am a 5'3" 31 yo female with the complex cocktail of female hormones.

I am also not a noob, I'm a 3 year vet and I've tried all the things you try - without success.

I know that I am under a fair bit of stress, obviously I am, look at me ranting, lol, but I posed this question because I really wanted to hear from people who had done what the question asks - not because I wanted to hear from people who haven't done it, but who have an opinion on why I shouldn't do it. know what I mean?

[swizzly 901]

I hear you, I accept the wisdom in the advice. However..

There is rather alarming research on the deliterious effects of intermitent (sp) fasting for women, all that great research out there on how awesome fasting is, has been done almost exclusively on males.

Yeah, my body was made to eat. And eat and eat and eat ... If my body was so naturally self-caretaking, I never would have needed surgery in the first place, my wiring is different.

If being of a severely low cal diet for say, 3 months, was as devastating as you make it sound, then why is it "okay" in the months after post-op? It's not like some magic fairy cloud of protection settles upon you during that time, or even that your body is different - after all they only removed some stomach, not a Roux-Y, not a DS. Please explain why doing it then is okay, and doing it now is not.

Also, there's so much preaching on VSG, preach preach preach, to listen to your body, your body will tell you what it needs, blah blah blahhhhhh. Usually from people who have reached goal relatively swiftly. Well, my body has been talking to me for 2 years, trying to get me to realize that the only way I lose weight is on very low calorie and very low carb. Am I only allowed to listen to my body if it's giving me a message that the VST gurus approve?

I am not a 6'4" male with male hormones, I am a 5'3" 31 yo female with the complex cocktail of female hormones.

I am also not a noob, I'm a 3 year vet and I've tried all the things you try - without success.

I know that I am under a fair bit of stress, obviously I am, look at me ranting, lol, but I posed this question because I really wanted to hear from people who had done what the question asks - not because I wanted to hear from people who haven't done it, but who have an opinion on why I shouldn't do it. know what I mean?

Good god you're prickly sometimes, woman!! We are just trying to help. And in case it's not 150% obvious to you, you are NOT in a good place mentally/emotionally, and the stress we speak of is not some abstract thing that isn't impacting you physically, it's a real issue that is blocking you all over the damn place...not to mention the fact that you're in a PTSD situation, an active war zone, with a head injury, a hernia, and possibly a new autoimmune illness, following a year or two of hard emotional hits. These are NOT circumstances under which you should be chasing super-low-cal eating. Don't like my opinion? I'm okay with that. But it's based on science (and common sense, frankly), not on VSG guru-ness, which expertise I have never claimed in the slightest.

So if it's also not clear: We are concerned about you. And *I* think you should NOT be eating sub-1000 calories. Not because I've had some la-la-la easy time of it (I haven't lost a gram in MONTHS), but because -- wait for it -- starving yourself is never a good idea, even if it's "effective" in making you lose weight. This is why they TREAT ANOREXIA instead of ignoring it. Jesus, woman.

We do it during the so-called "honeymoon phase" cos it's the only option when you're first post-op, and that is also the same time period during which most of us get pretty frequent medical check-ups too, cos it's not just a-okay to live sub-1000 over the long term. It causes malnutrition, among other problems, no matter how many supplements you take. And given your health and stress issues, you need to be effing taking care of yourself, not finding new and improved ways of punishing your body and yourself.

So yeah. There's my less-varnished opinions. <3

[Globetrotter 1,340]

Yes, I know, I know I can be prickly and thin skinned, and every single person's concern here is absolutely correct. I suppose sometimes the analyst in me just gets the upper hand; I asked if anybody had done this, and whether they got results from it, that's what I wanted to know.

Yes, I know I am irritable, I am short tempered right now, I am under a lot of stress but I would very much like to keep this thread from turning into a let's-flame-globe session. My original question was a valid one, if it upsets people too much or they can't answer it, I will take it down.

[swizzly 901]

Hon, I'm not 'flaming' you -- I'm just telling you what I really think instead of trying to coddle you as I normally would. There are many people who have tried to eat like a post-op and had success at losing (whether they've had surgery or not), it's just not sustainable or healthy. C'est tout. I'll STFU now.

Peace be unto you, my friend. :wub:

[lsereno 2,525]

Well I'm gonna buck the trend and say try the 800 calories per day with enough Protein. Not sure if its doable with your very restricted food food choices.

But that is my opinion.

Lynda

[lsereno 2,525]

Well I'm gonna buck the trend and say try the 800 calories per day with enough Protein. Not sure if its doable with your very restricted food food choices.

But that is my opinion.

Lynda

Oh and I did get results with this. I went from 135 to 140, which was my original range, but I was unhappy there and I went back to around 800 per day till I dropped back to 135. When I pass 137 now, I eat at around 800 per day till I drop lower. I don't have the same issues losing that you had though.

Lynda

[MichiganChic 3,262]

I don't know what's right. I know, brilliant response, lol. I DO know that I am in the same boat. I seem to lose best at 800-900 calories. I've been eating around 1000, sometimes more, and my weight loss has really slowed, and I still have a long way to go. I think you hit the nail on the head - you (we all) are wired different. I don't want to eat that little for a long time, but it might be the only way to get to goal - if I ever do. Incidentally, my weight loss slowed just after 6 months post op, AND when I switched jobs, i.e., high stress. I think for me it's a complex mess of things at work here. I say go back to what has worked in the past and see if it works again. If not, abandon and try something else. How far do you have to go?

[Chimera 644]

Reposting this from another board by a fellow sleeve vet I have a lot of respect for Elina_7. I have this printed out on my desk and read it all the time. Sorry for the eye-bloodying wall of text - VST wont let me edit unless it is pasted from a word document.

"This is a post for those of you that think that this surgery will get you to your goal, and I am here to share the bad news with you that it will not. This surgery alone will most likely only lead you to lose to about 50-60% of EW all by itself (on average, some people lose much less and others more). That is the bad news.

The good news is that this does not have to be your fate. You can make a choice to do much better than this statistic. You can choose to lose all the way to 100% EW and be in the top 10% of sleeve patients. You really can do this and than keep your results.

I am here at four years into my maintenance sharing this with you from my personal experience as well as observation. You can reach goal and you can keep it. This is what it takes (from my point of view) to get there and to stay there.

1) You will read about many programs on OH and your doctor will have their own program, my experience tells me that in most cases, the 600-800 cals, over 80 grams of Protein, under 40 grams of carbs is the way to go. Others will disagree, and I am OK with that. This is my post and my opinion and my observation. There is no way that I would have reached goal on 1200 calories. That is my maintenance level eating. This of course might need to be tweaked on an individual basis. If you are an athlete and workout multiple hours a day, or if you have a different goal than I did or if you have a super fast metabolism or are a guy and have tons of muscle, than maybe eating more calories will work for you. If you are a woman, petite, not a youngster, and work out an hour or so a day, in most cases, the higher calories will not get you to goal. Are there exceptions, of course there are exceptions. Are those exceptions common? No, they are not.

2) If you go into this with without realizing that the first six months to a year is all about your weight loss, you are cheating yourself. I read posts on here about how to add flavor to foods and often the point is about making this more palatable. There is nothing wrong with adding spices, or finding low carb, nutritious alternatives to some foods, however, when your focus is anything other than maximizing your weight loss, you are sabotaging your progress and your opportunity of reaching that elusive 100% EW. I can honestly tell you that I think I would have eaten cardboard in those early months if that was required of me. The dedication needs to be to the process, the rest is not that important. Find your groove with certain home made lean Proteins and mostly eat that until goal. This is not rocket science, eat 2-3 ounces of Protein and eat low carb veggies as Snacks.

3) Do not allow relationships to get in your way. I don't care if you have kids, or an unsupportive husband, or parents choose to undermine your efforts. That might sound callous, but really, I don't care and neither should you. This next six months to a year is about you and you alone. This is your selfish time, the time when nothing comes before you. If you can't have certain foods in the house, get rid of them. If your spouse sabotages you, stop them. Speak up, find your voice, set your boundaries and do not allow anyone to take your mind off the prize. You matter, you are important, you are precious, and you must find the strength to do the right thing for yourself. If the people in your life are not supportive of your efforts, minimize your contact, or set firm limits. You are in charge and you will not allow anyone to get in your way.

4) Find the warrior in you and give yourself over that part of you for now. Find your type A personality, your alpha and your OCD parts and marry them to get one heck of a fighter. This is not a passive experience, this takes guts, sweat and tears. This takes being over focused on the minutia of your eating and exercise. This is a second job, a new baby, a big deal. This is not about passively taking what comes your way. You must drive this and you must take full control and responsibility.

This will not be easy, but it is worth it, really, really worth it. Stop thinking that it will just happen, stop thinking that it should be easy, stop thinking that this shouldn't take a good deal of your time and energy or that it will be convenient. It will not be any of these things, and yet, in the end, you will love the results and remember the process with fondness. You will feel proud to own your results. This journey will change you, and I don't just mean your weight.

In the end, it comes down to an age old question; how badly do you want this?"

[Chimera 644]

She stayed at 600-800 cals, 80+ Protein, loooow carbs, oceans of calorie free liquid until she hit goal - she's tiny - 105 lbs and looks amazing.

[Globetrotter 1,340]

Lynda - thank you for being brave enough to buck! That's all I wanted, to just discuss it.

Chimera - that is absolutely incredible and just what I needed!! Who was that incredible veteran all star??

I have done 5:2 ADF for 23 days now, with no results. I am going to switch it up to 5:2 In Reverse, and see what happens.

[swizzly 901]

Who was that incredible veteran all star??

Elina_7 at Obesityhelp.com -- http://www.obesityhelp.com/member/elina_7/ I used to read the Sleeve forum there sometimes, but it's hard to follow the interface (for me), so I stopped. But I do remember her, she's a wee little thing and has a willpower of steel!!

[Globetrotter 1,340]

@ MichiganChic - sorry I didn't respond to your questions - I have 60 pounds to go until goal, so, it's not an insignificant amount.

Today I went into my online food tracker (FatSecret) and looked over my entries for the months that I had the best weight loss and sure enough, even though some days were a lot less and some days were a lot more, I averaged out to about 800 cals a day and, more importantly, less than 40g's carbs. I've decided to do Reverse 5:2; so instead of 5 days on food and 2 days off, I'm going to try 5 days off food 2 days on. So I will have Feed Days on Mondays and Fridays.