The (Living) Death Penalty

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I feel the same way, Sunta. I am very much against the death penalty, for the same reason you are. As a family member of a murder victim (my cousin was killed by his wife, who then forced their daughters to help her hide the body), I understand that the victim's family wants revenge and vengeance, but I feel our society should take the higher road. I like the saying "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Contrary to popular opinion, "an eye for an eye" was not justification for getting even, but a limit to the amount of retrobution. "No more than an eye for an eye" was what they meant.

[Carlene 12]

If the sentences for various types/instances of murder had just a little bit of consistency, I might feel better about the death penalty. When two people are both involved in a crime and, because they are tried separately, one gets death and the other gets a lesser punishment, then there's a problem, in my opinion.

Also, rich people can almost kill with impunity. I have huge issues with that.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I hope mousecrazy doesn't get angry at me for saying this;

But as an example, since mousecrazy and I never seem to agree on anything:

If a person was tried for murder and there were two juries, one consisting of 12 TOM's and one consisting of 12 mousecrazy's, then the two juries would probably reach different verdicts which proves that guilt or innocence is less important than who is on the jury.

How can we send some one to his death because of the jury that was selected to hear his case?

[Wheetsin 714]

When two people are both involved in a crime and, because they are tried separately, one gets death and the other gets a lesser punishment, then there's a problem, in my opinion.

I agree. Any time there's an arbitrary judgement involved, it's going to bring flaw into an allegedly objective system. And I agree completely with TOM. A dear friend of mine is a clinical psychologist. When he got burnt out on therapy, he accepted a position with a company who contracts psychologists to attorney groups for interviewing potential jury members. (I didn't even know that was done until he told me about it). As he once described it to me, his job was to find the easily impressionable people (or "weak of mind" as it was worded to him) that wouldn't be able to think for themselves enough to recognize whether or not evidence was beyond a shadow of a doubt, or vice-versa... who would sit there and be persuaded by the attorney's tone of voice, or because hey - makes sense to me! The company he worked for was large, and had competitiors, so this couldn't have been a one-off thing. Doesn't give prospective defendants much light, does it. :speechles

*Edited to add - none of that to mention the "I want to make an example of you" instances. My father has two people serving equal sentences in his prison, one after his 11th DWI conviction, and the other after his first.

[green 6]

I, too, have read that jury selection has become a real art and that lawyers hire experts in this in order to assist them in obtaining a panel that comes with a bias.

[Carlene 12]

Updated: 2:33 a.m. CT Jan 20, 2007

DALLAS - In a case that has renewed questions about the quality of Texas justice, a man who spent 10 years behind bars for the rape of a boy has become the 12th person in Dallas County to be cleared by DNA evidence.

That is more DNA exonerations than in all of California, and more than in Florida, too. In fact, Dallas County alone has more such cases than all but three states — a situation one Texas lawmaker calls an "international embarrassment."

James Waller, 50, was exonerated by a judge earlier this week and received an apology from the district attorney's office after a new type of DNA testing on hair and semen showed he was not the rapist who attacked a 12-year-old a boy living in Waller's apartment building in 1983. The boy had been the chief witness against him.

Only New York, Illinois and Texas have had more DNA exonerations than Dallas County, which has a population of 2.3 million, according to the Innocence Project, a New York-based legal center that specializes in overturning wrongful convictions.

Legislative push

"These are appalling mistakes, and in the case of Dallas County, there have been so many," said Democratic state Sen. Rodney Ellis of Houston, who is sponsoring a bill to create Texas Innocence Commission to scrutinize the state's criminal justice system.

A similar bill failed to reach the floor in the past two legislative sessions. But "my colleagues in the Senate, in particular, are beginning to see these are human lives we are talking about," Ellis said. "There are times when we make mistakes, and when we do, we ought to be big enough to admit it."

Since the nation's first DNA exoneration in 1989, 26 defendants have been cleared in Illinois, including 11 in Chicago's Cook County, according to the Innocence Project. There have been 21 exonerations each in Texas and New York, nine in California and six in Florida, the organization said.

In Dallas County, about 400 prisoners who filed wrongful-conviction claims have received DNA testing, leading to the 12 exonerations, said Trista Allen, a spokeswoman for the district attorney's office. New District Attorney Craig Watkins, who took office two weeks ago, is determined to look into the underlying causes, she said.

"DNA testing is to make sure innocent folks are not in jail," Allen said. "If you are not guilty, we want to get you out of jail. We're not going to be the DA that stands in the way."

Trouble with eyewitnesses?

Barry Scheck, co-director of the Innocence Project, said the number of exonerations in Dallas County "demands a closer look and statewide action." He said there is no clear reason there have been so many wrongful convictions in Dallas, but "many of the cases have to do with eyewitness identification."

That was true with Waller. A day after the rape, the boy was at a convenience store when he heard Waller's voice and became convinced Waller was the man who attacked him in his apartment.

Earlier, the boy had told police that he never saw the attacker face-to-face and that the man had worn a bandanna covering most of his face. Waller was also heavier and taller than the man described by the youngster.

Waller and his family were the only black residents of the apartment complex, according to the Innocence Project.

He began seeking DNA testing in 1989. Since his parole, he has had to register as a sex offender, but his lawyers are trying to get that requirement lifted.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

A dear friend of mine is a clinical psychologist. When he got burnt out on therapy, he accepted a position with a company who contracts psychologists to attorney groups for interviewing potential jury members. (I didn't even know that was done until he told me about it). As he once described it to me, his job was to find the easily impressionable people (or "weak of mind" as it was worded to him) that wouldn't be able to think for themselves enough to recognize whether or not evidence was beyond a shadow of a doubt, or vice-versa... who would sit there and be persuaded by the attorney's tone of voice, or because hey - makes sense to me! The company he worked for was large, and had competitiors, so this couldn't have been a one-off thing. Doesn't give prospective defendants much light, does it.

Rich people can afford to hire these "Jury Advisors", while poor people can barely afford a decent attorney

This has lead to a complete disconnect with reality between the public and their perception of the judicial system. The average US citizen sees the Jury system as always letting the guilty go free, while in actuality, the innocent are often convicted. The reason is that the majority of cases that get into the news are celebrity cases in which the celebrity outspends the prosecution (got to keep taxes down), but the vast majority of cases are those that do not make the news and they involve defendants with slim resources who very often have inadequate council and get convicted even when innocent.

When I was a foreman of a Grand Jury in Kings County (Brooklyn, NY), the

Assistant District Attorney told me that Kings County had an 88% conviction rate.

[anonemouse 1]

Carlene's article really makes me wonder how many people have died in prison (either naturally, killed by other inmates, or by the death penalty) because their requests for additional DNA testing was never approved, or died before DNA testing was available. It took that guy 18 years to be exonerated after he started requesting DNA testing. Can you imagine what happened to him in prison because he was convicted for raping a boy? If I were him, I'd be suing everyone for all they were worth.

I highly doubt most DAs are eager to give additional DNA testing to any inmate that asks. I may be cynical, but I think most of them would look after their reputations first. They aren't eager for inmates they convicted to be proven innocent.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

They aren't eager for inmates they convicted to be proven innocent.

SO TRUE!!!

[cjkerr 0]

I hesitate to jump in here but I will. I am a former tarrant county prosecutor and current defense attorney.

The death penalty is what it is and there's not much that can be done to "fix" it. As technology advances so will the ability to scientifically determine guilt and innocence. Until that happens every trial is inherently flawed in that it relies on the judgment and discretion of 12 (or 6) members of society. You never really get to know what baggage the jury brings to court with them and hidden agendas play a big part in deliberation. The death penalty is such a hot topic because society as a whole thinks they should object to state sanctioned killing. They think they should be morally opposed to it. Why?? Do you really want to take a moral stand against a gangster who shot up a family in the park as a gang initiation? Or how about the stoned out meth head who broke into somebody's house in the middle of the night and murdered the residents only to steal $20 for his next fix. Perhaps we should let them off because they were "not in their right minds". Better yet perhaps the next person who rapes and slaughters a woman just for the hell of it should get counselling because his father used to be mean to him. Grow up. We are a state that utilizes the death penalty in a fair and deliberate way. Texans should all praise Bush for actually speeding the process up and executing these monsters. And as far as those innocent people who get executed go - life can suck. People make mistakes and that's why we have an appeal system. It may be slow and imperfect but it's the best we have right now. You think 31 years in prison is long enough for taking a life? How long will that vicitm be dead. They don't get to come back to life after an acceptable amount of time and neither should their killer. What could that person who was murdered have done in that amount of time? How has the victim's family been affected? Do I think innocent people should be executed? No. But neither do I think we should commute sentences because it "might" be unfair. Our law is our law and unless you want to fight it on a legislative level we need to learn to live with it. I look forward to the day they execute Darla Routier. It won't bring her kids back but I'll breathe a sigh of relief.

Carole

[anonemouse 1]

And as far as those innocent people who get executed go - life can suck.

That's all you can say, "life can suck"? Would you think about saying that to a child that was raped and the man who did it was never prosecuted? "Get over it. Life can suck." The fact that a lot of the people on death row ARE guilty does not excuse the deaths of the convicts that WERE INNOCENT. And I'm sorry, but it is state-sponsored murder when there is a time limit on the introduction of new evidence. What are you supposed to do if new technology shows that you were innocent, but it is a year after your time to introduce new evidence is up? Would you want a prosecuter to tell you to "get over it, life can suck" if your husband was wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death row?

[cjkerr 0]

That's all you can say, "life can suck"? Would you think about saying that to a child that was raped and the man who did it was never prosecuted? "Get over it. Life can suck."

Clearly I wouldn't say that to a child who was raped. He already knows. I would say it, however, to the person convicted of the rape who years later gets acquited.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Carol:

Life without parole can always be corrected if a mistake was made in the trial.

A person executed has no recourse.

The need to kill is one of the lowest forms of human behavior. When it is done by government, it is even lower considering the relative power of the government. Hitler, by the standards you use, was not evil. He was just enforcing the law of his land.

George W. BuSh was asked by a fellow Republican governor to rethink the death penalty in 1999, because half the people on death row in Illinois had been found to be innocent by a graduate class in journalism from Northwestern University. The governor of Illinois told BuSh that his state and Texas used the same system for determining the death penalty, so he assumed that Texas would also have innocent people on death row. But BuSh being characteristically stubborn said that there was nothing wrong with the Texas judicial system.

Why do you ask about what we want done to "a gangster who shot up a family in the park as a gang initiation? Or how about the stoned out meth head who broke into somebody's house in the middle of the night and murdered the residents only to steal $20 for his next fix"?

Why don't you ask what we want done to people who were convicted of those crimes but were totally innocent?

If your post is consistent with the feelings of defense attorneys for their defendant clients which they represent, then there is no wonder we have so many innocent people on death row.

[green 6]

Up here in Canada we had abolished the death penalty a long, long time ago. We haven't seen anyone executed for the past 5 decades. This has proven to be a good thing; we have seen a number of long term prisoners released as new evidence, usually to do with advanced forensic techniques, comes to light.

Of course the average citizen will find him or herself at times regretting the lack of the ultimate penalty. This is when we are confronted with an individual whose crimes have been truly monstrous, truly unfathomably grotesque.

But detective work is not always, despite what we see on television, flawless. Sometimes the police settle on a likely suspect and make the facts of the crime fit the suspect.

In rural areas and small towns the local police force may not have the same access to sophisticated methods or be as comfortable with sophisticated methodology as the urban forces are. This is often just a dollars and cents issue and nothing more but there may also be pressures exerted by the locals to find and convict and that might cloud the ability of the local force to function in a clear-headed and detached manner.

In the mid 1990s we had a high profile case where an innocent man - Guy Morin - was found guilty of abducting and murdering a child. In his case the local police force felt that his profile filled the bill. He was a shy and sensitive man who still lived with his family. It was only later, much later in fact that it was discovered that a family member may have done it. It was forensics which cleared this individual.

The aftermath of this botched affair was that the Province of Ontario paid him a whack of cash and gave him a formal apology. They didn't tell him that life can suck.

Please note that although this is the case which I have chosen to describe there are a number of others which are similar. There is, for instance, the case of David Milgaard who had been in prison for 3 decades for a crime that would have earned him the death penalty in certain jurisdictions.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

The USA is one of only a handful of countries that uses the death penalty.

Do a google and when you find out who the other countries are, you might want to take a shower.