Non believers

[lsereno 2,525]

At least they won't have to open far for your skinny ass.

Hah. Finally got a laugh out of this thread. Count me in the nonbeliever group. But unless someone is discriminating against me for it ( Hello Overeaters Anonymous and the Boy Scouts!!) I don't say much about it.

Lynda

[southernsoul 773]

That's honestly what I was hoping for....a little civil conversation without an argument. And happy to hear from all sides as well. Yes there have been many holy wars fought in the past here....we don't need another one.

I know some people don't understand why I even brought all this up, but this issue has a special significance in my life. Like I said before, I married a preacher's daughter. And not just any preacher, a fundamentalist southern baptist preacher. Needless to say he takes his religion very seriously. And he puts his church above everything....including his wife and kids. I always thought in time he would grow more accepting of me, but in fact he's grown less so. My SIL told me recently that he said he had hoped I would "wake up" by now and started going to church. Not going to happen. I guess we both don't understand the other and are unable to find a middle ground. I have a BIL that started going to church when he married into the family, and he plays the part well. But when it's just him and me, he doesn't act the part. He says things that no Christian man ought to say, in my opinion. Particularly the overt racist jokes that can be so prevalent here in the rural south, from believers and non believers alike. I hate that stuff.....and then on sunday there he is singing in the church choir. I can't reconcile the racism with the spiritual belief. But that contradiction is rampant in my part of the country.

It's just as rampant in rural Georgia. My mother is woman of great faith, but she is also quite open-minded, non-judgmental, inclusive, and kind. She absolutely hates hearing the extreme religious right viewpoint being characterized as "the" religious view, as if it is in any way truly reflective of the teachings of Christ. Despite our differences when it comes to faith, I admire the depth of her belief and I know how important her faith is to her. But, I cringe when I see religion used as an excuse to lessen or marginalize someone viewed as different by the very people who claim to be of such great faith. I can understand having an intellectual disagreement, but I do not understand how it can ever be justifiable to use religion to minimize the value of another person or group of people. In service to a particular religious viewpoint, I have seen one friend rejected by her family for falling in love with a man of a different race and several other friends rejected by their families for being gay. I have heard really ugly things said to these dear friends by their relatives and others, all in the name of religion. It's heartbreaking and so unnecessary, in my opinion. I also can't reconcile the racist or homophobic views with what the spiritual belief is supposed to be about.

[Veruca Salt 31]

I found your post to be very open and mad to not infringe on anyone else's beliefs. I too do not look to any kind of hgher power. I have a nephew who is gong to college to be a minister. That is great for him but that does not give him the right to jam it down my throat. He also leans to much on my mother (and she does not have a pot to piss in). If he needs financial help why does he not ask his higher power.

I am not saying I am the only one out there but, if there was a higher power why was life so hard on me, who appericates everything people do or say. A simple "you can do it, I believe in you" goes so far with me. Still life is one huge struggle. While you have people out there just sitting home not working, complaining that their goverment handout is not enough. and get the world handed to them. If there was a "god" why would I never get a push up. Here I am getting off track. If there was something or someone higher than us why is there suck horrible things happening to innocent childern. Where is he for them.

[GypsyQueen 198]

Hah. Finally got a laugh out of this thread. Count me in the nonbeliever group. But unless someone is discriminating against me for it ( Hello Overeaters Anonymous and the Boy Scouts!!) I don't say much about it.

Lynda

It's funny you mention the Boy Scouts, Lynda. My sons have been Scouting for most of their lives, and it has thankfully not revolved around religion. But I did feel weird about it because we are not church goers and the whole Duty to God certainly is hard to ignore. I sent my boys to religious class just in case to feel like they complied and so they could make up their own minds.

in any case, they both fully supported allowing gay scouts, along with so many other open minded people, which led to the changing policy. It will be interesting to watch the next generation deal with religion or lack thereof, as well.

I don't not believe... it's nice to think somebody is listening to my innermost thoughts, but then again, maybe it's just an invisible friend. It's always an ongoing debate.

[gamergirl 4,610]

It's funny you mention the Boy Scouts' date=' Lynda. My sons have been Scouting for most of their lives, and it has thankfully not revolved around religion. But I did feel weird about it because we are not church goers and the whole Duty to God certainly is hard to ignore. I sent my boys to religious class just in case to feel like they complied and so they could make up their own minds.

in any case, they both fully supported allowing gay scouts, along with so many other open minded people, which led to the changing policy. It will be interesting to watch the next generation deal with religion or lack thereof, as well.

I don't not believe... it's nice to think somebody is listening to my innermost thoughts, but then again, maybe it's just an invisible friend. It's always an ongoing debate.

[/quote']

I pulled my son out of Scouts when they spoke openly about not allowing gays to be scout leaders. IMHO any organization that is so discriminatory, and so ignorant as to not know the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, deserved neither my support, nor my precious child. Your experience and troop sounds so much better. I wish we'd had that.

I did question whether it was fair to deprive my son of the experience for the sake of my beliefs (which were also his at a very early age) and I still don't know if what I did was right, but there you are.

Sometimes I feel like I make these grandiose political statements....that effect exactly nothing and no one except me. . Take for example, my refusing to drink tea because it was an Anglophile habit brought into my country by marauding invaders.

Yup. I challenge you to find one "invader"'who cared, while I lived years without a wonderful beverage. In my defense I was quite young

I ramble but I have a point. Which is, I teeter between taking a stand that I think changes nothing, and thinking that change can only be effected by individuals, taking impassioned stands.

[Butterthebean 8,146]

Interesting turn this thread has taken. And while I don't believe that homophobia is solely a Christian vice, I do believe that politicians have linked the 2 issues together by trying to legislate their homophobia onto the rest of society in the name of their religion and "family values." Oh f**k how I hate that term, particularly because of the way it's been twisted to be so synonymous with suppression of those not like the mainstream.

But I too like to make statements. There was a time before my surgery when Chik FIL A got a large percentage of my paycheck every week....me totally unaware of how they were investing their profits. When I found out I had to quit them even though theirs was about the only fast food I wanted on a daily basis. They seem to have recovered financially from the loss of my business, but still I'm not going back.

[GypsyQueen 198]

I pulled my son out of Scouts when they spoke openly about not allowing gays to be scout leaders. IMHO any organization that is so discriminatory' date=' and so ignorant as to not know the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality, deserved neither my support, nor my precious child. Your experience and troop sounds so much better. I wish we'd had that.

I did question whether it was fair to deprive my son of the experience for the sake of my beliefs (which were also his at a very early age) and I still don't know if what I did was right, but there you are.

Sometimes I feel like I make these grandiose political statements....that effect exactly nothing and no one except me. . Take for example, my refusing to drink tea because it was an Anglophile habit brought into my country by marauding invaders.

Yup. I challenge you to find one "invader"'who cared, while I lived years without a wonderful beverage. In my defense I was quite young

I ramble but I have a point. Which is, I teeter between taking a stand that I think changes nothing, and thinking that change can only be effected by individuals, taking impassioned stands.

[/quote']

Gamergirl, if our experience started as yours did, we also would not have stayed. We started with a Jewish Cubmaster in a non-denominational church whose involvement was limited to handing us a set of keys and signing a paper once a year saying we were allowed to meet. We had such diversity (Ft. Lauderdale), that a closing prayer just said "thank you for a great meeting, let the boys have fun this weekend and bring them home safe. Amen."

After being in a couple years, I made a friend who was lesbian and she read me the riot act about joining Scouts. I completely understood her position, but religion/sexuality was never spoken of to the boys, So we stayed in because what they were actually teaching was to be accepting, independent leaders. Which is exactly why the changes are happening from within the organization itself. Scouting got a bad rap, and reputation thanks to corporate BS. Yes, there are some who are much more strongly tied to religion due to the church with which it's affiliated. But my general experience was more common, than not. We moved several times (hence the gypsy queen) and thankfully never had a closed minded experience.

i am fence post, middle of the road, non political or religious, I don't take a stand, just quietly live and lead by example. We'd be fast friends, in any case, because most of my closest friends are great at making grandiose statements.

[gamergirl 4,610]

Interesting turn this thread has taken. And while I don't believe that homophobia is solely a Christian vice' date=' I do believe that politicians have linked the 2 issues together by trying to legislate their homophobia onto the rest of society in the name of their religion and "family values." Oh f**k how I hate that term, particularly because of the way it's been twisted to be so synonymous with suppression of those not like the mainstream.

But I too like to make statements. There was a time before my surgery when Chik FIL A got a large percentage of my paycheck every week....me totally unaware of how they were investing their profits. When I found out I had to quit them even though theirs was about the only fast food I wanted on a daily basis. They seem to have recovered financially from the loss of my business, but still I'm not going back.[/quote']

Me too! Theoretically I accept it's just a sandwich and everyone is free to invest their money however they like. But in practice, I have had to say goodbye to their killer diet lemonade because in my case, it seems to come with a large side of guilt.

[Butterthebean 8,146]

Me too! Theoretically I accept it's just a sandwich and everyone is free to invest their money however they like. But in practice' date=' I have had to say goodbye to their killer diet lemonade because in my case, it seems to come with a large side of guilt.[/quote']

.....and waffle fries.

[Nicolanz 1,484]

I'm one of those who want to believe but just don't have it in me. I envy those who without a doubt believe in a higher power or don't. I'm lost in the middle. I guess that would be agnostic, right? It's funny ....I used to whole heartedly believe in a higher being but not with organized religion. I read the Bible front to back and lost all the faith I had. I can't control how I feel and it's actually been a very real internal battle with myself. If God is real, has he left me?

I love a good mature discussion about religion. It's actually very interesting to hear different stand points. Having an open mind and acceptance is a beautiful thing. Thinking about where we came from, why we're here, and what's beyond us makes me feel like my head is going to explode! Lol

[Fiddleman 4,376]

My goal behind responding to this Boyscout issue is that the conversation remain civil.

Honestly, I was disappointed in the decision that got made with regards to creating a line of delineation between gay scouts and gay leaders. I understand why they made this decision because of the power that adult leaders hold over the boys. However, divisiveness like this reeks of political openness overtones and that I had a problem with.

I remember Scouts as it used to be. The scout oath and the scout motto defines a powerful direction for boys to become strong future leaders of morale strength. Scouts was a major part of my childhood and helped mold me into the person of leadership and moral character I am today.

You see, I am an Eagle Scout, as are my two brothers, and I am proud of that. It comes with a responsibility to uphold the scout oath. We accepted the challenge of being an Eagle scout together in a joint ceremony. It was hard work to reach that award, but I am glad that Scouts was very morally structured back then, that it was inclusive to those that held the high standards of integrity, respect for authority and respect for a shared belief system.

For what scouts is turning into today is creating men that lack the integrity and morale standard that scouts was known for, all in the name of political openness. The boys need a clear and narrow path of a belief system, respect for authority and integrity in order to become leaders as adult men that will keep our country strong and prosperous. I am afraid for what the lack of these standards and belief system is going to have on the future of our country.

The county of America has already suffered so much because openness has created an environment where "anything goes" that has destroyed a once proud country due to lack of integrity. This is a very general statement that applies to the political system, the borders, the financial system, etc.

There is so much rampant corruption in every part of the geo-social-political layers. Look at the scandals that are constantly taking place in the last decade alone in both major political parties. Look at the corruption in the major religious organizations. Look at the corruption of the financial system. We lack integrity at the highest levels of leadership and that can be traced back to lack of integrity instilled in young adults from the earlier and current generations.

Please keep responses civil.

[clk 3,519]

I appreciate this post. I am not entirely sure where I stand but I'm a believer of something - just not entirely sure what it is. Growing up in a house that was half Jewish guilt and half Southern Baptist surety that they had the only way to heaven was incredibly confusing for me as a child. My mom converted to Christianity when I was a young girl and the religious tensions at family gatherings were the stuff movies are made of - her grandparents were survivors from Poland.

I don't really invest a lot of time in religion at all - and am almost entirely opposed to any formal or structured practice at all. OTOH, I remember how confusing it was for me to hear conflicting views of what's right as a kid, so I have compromised with my incredibly Jewish husband and allow our kids to be raised "Jewish" but that's, you know, American Jewish, as in, totally assimilated and lacking a formal education. I don't know. It bothers me at times, because I don't much like religion. And deep down, I know my kids aren't going to care much about it later, anyway, because unless you're growing up in a fundamental household or you go out and catch religion on your Taglit trip you're pretty much Jewish by bloodline and nothing else.

I think being Jewish is more complicated than it is for being Christian because it's not a choice. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I think the biggest issue many people have on both sides of the fence is the ability to be accepting. I have just as many "in your face, I must make you realize your beliefs are stupid" atheist acquaintances as "I must convert you to save you" Christian ones. Nobody Jewish or Muslim in my life is proselytizing like those other two groups, so I can't comment there. I get the eye rolls about what a "bad Jew" I am, but I'm still Jewish even if I never go to shul, eat bacon and have tattoos. See above - I mean, being Jewish is pretty complicated.

But hubs and I recently discussed this because we're military - and if you're not aware there are a lot of rumblings from both sides. We fully support the push to completely separate religion and the military and would love to see the Chaplain corps disbanded entirely. It's unfair to represent part of the troops and provide them additional counseling/support and deny it to others. It has no place in government and the military is government.

I think that if you're different in any way - a non believer, a wiccan, undecided, or just not Christian (i.e. Muslim or Jewish) - that life in America is a totally different experience.

You have no idea (or maybe you do) how many times I've run up against this idea that it's just a given that of course you're Christian. Of course you are. I mean, you might be a different (i.e. "wrong") Christian, but you're still Christian. It's an assumption. I don't get my hackles up when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas. It's not the idea that they wished me a happy holiday that I don't Celebrate that bothers me. It's the ASSUMPTION that OF COURSE I Celebrate it, why wouldn't I? I mean, if I'm not Christian, I should fix that defect and be one, because who wouldn't choose to be one? Does that make any sense?

We run up against it in the military ALL THE TIME. Interfaith prayer meetings where the only speakers pray to Jesus. Non-optional "Holiday" parties with Christmas trees and Santa and mandatory caroling. I'm not making these up. My husband sat in on a meeting where a post Chaplain used his time to speak to tell us how all his friends who died in Vietnam died because they didn't believe in Jesus. And there's now something called "spiritual fitness" that is used to assess risk in servicemembers. Not having faith is actually considered a suicide risk - like believing in God makes people less damaged when they fight these stupid wars? Really? Well, if religion is all it takes, let's pass out pills to all the masses and we'll be "saved together!"

That's what gets me. I don't need to see a religious symbol for every group in the town hall's display each year - it's ridiculous. I'd rather that the town hall accept that it has no place celebrating any religiously affiliated holiday because it's an entity, not a person. If people want to celebrate that's great and more power to them. It's when we cross that line and groups or organizations that really have no business doing it try to represent a particular set of beliefs that we wind up in territory like this - with competing symbols to prove a point.

I don't want my local store to put up a Hanukkah decoration to make me feel better. I want them to not put up a display at all and leave the celebrations for people to enjoy privately to in their homes. I want them to accept that just because there's a majority in this country that does not mean they get to disregard everyone else. And the answer, for me at least, is certainly not making half-assed attempts to represent everyone with a kinara and a hanukkiah!

~Cheri

[gamergirl 4,610]

I'm one of those who want to believe but just don't have it in me. I envy those who without a doubt believe in a higher power or don't. I'm lost in the middle. I guess that would be agnostic, right? It's funny ....I used to whole heartedly believe in a higher being but not with organized religion. I read the Bible front to back and lost all the faith I had. I can't control how I feel and it's actually been a very real internal battle with myself. If God is real, has he left me?

I have tried hard to believe over the years. There's a lot of research to suggest that those who believe in a higher power have more positive mental health outcomes, so I have kept an open mind.

My father is Hindu, my mother was Sikh, my best friend was Muslim, and I went to Catholic convent schools all my life. There was plenty to choose from. And I tried it all. I have read the Bible in it's entirety (except the begats), I've read the Gita, the Mahabharat and the Ramayana, and portions of the Koran. I am very familiar with the precepts of the Jewish faith. I've been to temples (Indian and Jewish), churches of many, many denominations (Methodist, Unity, non-denominational, Catholic, Presbyterian, Unitarian etc.).

And I feel like a fraud in every one of them because that THING that I should feel in my heart, I don't. I would love to experience this thing that brings peace to so many. But for whatever reason, that is not my path.

One day I will tell you guys all the series of "coincidences" that allowed me to adopt my younger son from start to finish in 2.5 weeks, and you will see why I have no trouble believing there is a larger plan, beyond my ken. I also have no trouble believing there is a higher power. Heck, I know PEOPLE who are more powerful than me, so that one is easy to accept.

But that omnipotent, omnipresent, vengeful, anthropomorphic version of convention---I don't feel it.

Like I said, for me, it's not a matter of choice.

[gamergirl 4,610]

My goal behind responding to this Boyscout issue is that the conversation remain civil.

I remember Scouts as it used to be. The scout oath and the scout motto defines a powerful direction for boys to become strong future leaders of morale strength. Scouts was a major part of my childhood and helped mold me into the person of leadership and moral character I am today

Please keep responses civil.

Much of what you say is why I struggled with my choice to pull my son out of it. I feel like I deprived him of some good, old-fashioned, leadership training, persistence and diligence in the face of challenges, and some group-bonding opportunities.

If they had kept to the Boy Scouts bit of it, there was nothing to argue about. It's like Butter said earlier, this jumbled combination of politics and religion, Christianity being represented by SOME as exclusionary, and the Boy Scouts becoming suddenly about exclusion, where things get complicated.

[Nicolanz 1,484]

I have tried hard to believe over the years. There's a lot of research to suggest that those who believe in a higher power have more positive mental health outcomes' date=' so I have kept an open mind.

My father is Hindu, my mother was Sikh, my best friend was Muslim, and I went to Catholic convent schools all my life. There was plenty to choose from. And I tried it all. I have read the Bible in it's entirety (except the begats), I've read the Gita, the Mahabharat and the Ramayana, and portions of the Koran. I am very familiar with the precepts of the Jewish faith. I've been to temples (Indian and Jewish), churches of many, many denominations (Methodist, Unity, non-denominational, Catholic, Presbyterian, Unitarian etc.).

And I feel like a fraud in every one of them because that THING that I should feel in my heart, I don't. I would love to experience this thing that brings peace to so many. But for whatever reason, that is not my path.

One day I will tell you guys all the series of "coincidences" that allowed me to adopt my younger son from start to finish in 2.5 weeks, and you will see why I have no trouble believing there is a larger plan, beyond my ken. I also have no trouble believing there is a higher power. Heck, I know PEOPLE who are more powerful than me, so that one is easy to accept.

But that omnipotent, omnipresent, vengeful, anthropomorphic version of convention---I don't feel it.

Like I said, for me, it's not a matter of choice.[/quote']

We are definitely on the same page. You just have a better way with words