female only Grappling with the changes in perception, also known as, Damned if you do/Damned if you don't. :(

[Arts137 1,811]

Men too, Jane. Men too.

[gamergirl 4,610]

Men too' date=' Jane. Men too.[/quote']

True. I used to really dislike dating men who'd start off saying Women don't like short men, or bald men, or not-so-rich men or whatever their hang-up was. I always felt that was THEIR hang-up, not mine.

[CowgirlJane 14,259]

You are both right.

I guess i was focused on women because this is the powder room (don't get me started on how i feel about the topic of not letting men post here!) but i suspect that for some men, this issue is even tougher. Women are always judged on looks first, but, since at least some fat is socially acceptable one women it seems like there is a range of tolerance at least. Men are judged on alot of other things (example: wealth) BUT every woman I have talked to strongly prefers men to be fit looking so the range of tolerance seems smaller.

Anyway, it is a head trip no matter how you look at it. When I was going through the worst of the adjustment, one mantra I said to myself what that "others can say or do what they want but it is within my power to chose how to let it impact me". My meaning was i could choose to feel overwhelmed/threatened or I could choose to be flattered. I could choose to respond to being hit on, or I could choose to smile and say "no thank you". It was an amazingly empowering feeling to frame it that way.

I have been warned that I need to be careful about the plastics too - suddenly having "more ideal breasts" could trigger this whole adjustment again, for example.

[Globetrotter 1,340]

Somehow, growing up and especially in early adulthood, I managed to absorb three completely opposed things: That men would only be interested in me for what they could get from me physically, that I had nothing to offer physically, AND that if any man showed any interest in me ever it would only be for his physical satisfaction. Except, see #2. woah.

[Marerz 21]

You are both right.

I guess i was focused on women because this is the powder room (don't get me started on how i feel about the topic of not letting men post here!) but i suspect that for some men' date=' this issue is even tougher. Women are always judged on looks first, but, since at least some fat is socially acceptable one women it seems like there is a range of tolerance at least. Men are judged on alot of other things (example: wealth) BUT every woman I have talked to strongly prefers men to be fit looking so the range of tolerance seems smaller.

Anyway, it is a head trip no matter how you look at it. When I was going through the worst of the adjustment, one mantra I said to myself what that "others can say or do what they want but it is within my power to chose how to let it impact me". My meaning was i could choose to feel overwhelmed/threatened or I could choose to be flattered. I could choose to respond to being hit on, or I could choose to smile and say "no thank you". It was an amazingly empowering feeling to frame it that way.

I have been warned that I need to be careful about the plastics too - suddenly having "more ideal breasts" could trigger this whole adjustment again, for example.[/quote']

Love your mantra! Great advice!

[Deakay 15]

Men are visual creatures.......at least mine is. He loves to look at me It makes me feel extremely confident and that in turn makes me more attractive.

What I find interesting is when I was over-weight, I felt invisable and assumed that I was. Now that I am not obese, I don't know if more men notice me or if it is just because my man points it out to me when another guy is checking me out....lol because I still don't notice it very often. Maybe I'm obtuse............

[Globetrotter 1,340]

we say all the time how men are visual creatures, what, and all women everywhere are sightless? Why do they get a pass for making judgement calls with their eyes???????

I was told today that my body gives false advertisement, basically that I look smokin' hot with my curves and muscles, but that it's a horror show when I'm naked. That was crushing.

[Arts137 1,811]

Globe,

Don't let an idiot crush you. You look marvelous. Period.

And I got here in the powder Room because I look at recent posts, sorry...

[jensjoy28 351]

we say all the time how men are visual creatures' date=' what, and all women everywhere are sightless? Why do they get a pass for making judgement calls with their eyes???????

I was told today that my body gives false advertisement, basically that I look smokin' hot with my curves and muscles, but that it's a horror show when I'm naked. That was crushing.[/quote']

That would be crushing...you could have told that piece of **** that he also had some false advertising going on because he looks smokin' hot with his mouth closed, but then he opens his mouth and it's a horror show. So sorry that was your experience.

[gamergirl 4,610]

we say all the time how men are visual creatures' date=' what, and all women everywhere are sightless? Why do they get a pass for making judgement calls with their eyes???????

I was told today that my body gives false advertisement, basically that I look smokin' hot with my curves and muscles, but that it's a horror show when I'm naked. That was crushing.[/quote']

To my way of thinking, the only mistake you made here was extending the privilege of being with you to some ass that didn't deserve it. We've all made those mistakes. I hope you slapped him hard and never intend to see him again. Clearly he was not worthy.

In most other species except humans, the females are the ones that get to be picky, and the males are the ones that have to preen, display, and court. The female decides if the male and his genes are worthy of her time and effort. Somewhere, somehow, we've allowed this to go backwards where human females feel like they need to be subservient and that they need to please and be chosen. That's not a biological imperative, that's a social subversion.

When I was single, the big change that occurred for me was when I treated every date as a job interview. And just to be clear, HE was interviewing for the position, not me. I was evaluating to see if he was the right guy for me. Change in mindset that changed my life.

Sending you hugs and hoping the as$hat gets what's coming to him

[LipstickLady 25,682]

To my way of thinking, the only mistake you made here was extending the privilege of being with you to some ass that didn't deserve it. We've all made those mistakes. I hope you slapped him hard and never intend to see him again. Clearly he was not worthy.

In most other species except humans, the females are the ones that get to be picky, and the males are the ones that have to preen, display, and court. The female decides if the male and his genes are worthy of her time and effort. Somewhere, somehow, we've allowed this to go backwards where human females feel like they need to be subservient and that they need to please and be chosen. That's not a biological imperative, that's a social subversion.

When I was single, the big change that occurred for me was when I treated every date as a job interview. And just to be clear, HE was interviewing for the position, not me. I was evaluating to see if he was the right guy for me. Change in mindset that changed my life.

Sending you hugs and hoping the as$hat gets what's coming to him

Amen, sister! Mr.Lipstick is well aware that when he married me, he married up and I remind him of it often.

As far as the original post? I think gamergirl has said everything perfectly here. Personally, I want a man who thinks I'm hot. When I feel hot, and he thinks I'm hot, magic happens. And of course, the same is true in reverse.

That said, a man has (had -- I've been with the Mr. for 21 years now) to be something special to get past a little bit 'o kissing here -- not because I am a prude or conservative, I lived in a sorority house for 3 years, I've done/seen it all -- but because it hurts to be used for a little sweaty groping with a guy who is then never heard from again. I'm worth far more than that as are all women. It's imperative that all women put themselves on a pedestal and demand respect and love before they surrender their hearts (or their pants). Even if you weren't brought up to feel that way, YOU have to demand it anyways.

We are all adults here. We are past the age of blaming things on our parents/upbringing/environment. We need to be accountable to ourselves and we need to take control of what we allow to happen to us. If you want to find love, love yourself. If you want a man to respect you, respect yourself. If you want to find a stable relationship, develop that relationship emotionally before you allow anything to develop physically. If you don't think you are worthy of that, get your butt into therapy and find out what changes you need to make within you before even considering dating.

You can't change the people around you. You can only change yourself and how you allow those people to treat you.

[LipstickLady 25,682]

I am afraid you are putting yourself into a box. You are trapped by your impossible standards. You want someone who wants you despite your attractive or unattractive body. The problem is this: you cannot get rid of your body without dying and you want someone without human nature.

Humans have eyes that serve them by helping them judge their surroundings. From the time we are born we use our eyes to avoid danger and find things that please us.

Men have sex drives. That drive is a part of who they are. When they look at a woman they are looking through the eyes of a sexual person. The more noble among us put that drive down the list of things that are important and allow love, affection, loyalty, kindness, and responsibility to take precedence.

You could find a man without a sex drive. Would you want such a man? Not if you have a sex drive. Or you could do what many women do, find a man that is a good enough actor who can convince you that their affection for you is purely spiritual and emotional. Such men are often laden with hidden motives.

When I desparage people for being superficial I train my critical gaze upon myself and review the many times that my eyes were mistaken about my judgement of people or rather my brain interpreted the information wrong.

Ask yourself: Do I look at men and not see their bodies? Do I size them up in a way I wouldn't want to be sized up?

I am not saying to quit looking for a guy that isn't a jerk. What I am saying is to allow yourself to be desired but not at the price of allowing your inner self to be overlooked. Find a guy who thinks with the head that sits on his shoulders, not the "other head." You want someone who can love you but allow that they do not have to be eunichs.

Edit: again I put a lot of time into a reply but failed to see where it was posted, in the ladies section. If you want this deleted do so or tell me to. Sorry.

Oh. And I think I love you. Just so you know.

[Macy6 356]

In fairness' date=' I prefer fitter looking men over obese too.[/quote']

I honestly feel the same way. I have avoided dating the last few years because like the OP said, if I can't love myself, how can I expect someone else to love me (or something along those lines) I don't find myself attractive being obese and as a human I don't personally find the opposite sex all that attractive being obese. I don't need a ripped guy who has veins bulging, but I do want to be attracted to someone and equally attractive to someone when I date them. I also don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is going to drag me down, so if I am dating someone who Is morbidly obese and all they do is sit on the couch and eat crap (the way I have all these years) how will I ever better myself. Same reason I would never date a smoker or drinker. I am a past smoker, I never want to do that again and I know if I live with someone who smokes I am at risk of smoking again. Just my opinion of course.

[CowgirlJane 14,259]

Globetrotter - that is about the meanest thing I have ever heard... screw him! I keep feeling like your living circumstances put you around people that suck, the real world just isn't that harsh...

So, I have enough skin for two people. I look pretty good in clothes. It is a conundrum, but, so far has been an easy one but i admit to not having lots of experience either (ie being seen with all this skin; without clothes) so maybe I have just been lucky.

I am dating a person who I talked to alot before he ever got to "see" any of this. By the time he did see my nakedness, he was sort of puzzled what i had made such a big deal out of. Apparently, I properly set expectations..haha. It took him months to come around to why I feel I want/need plastic surgery as he just didn't think it was that bad. His view was that alot of women in our age range (I am 49 he is early 50s) have had kids etc and have less then perfect figures. The fact that i am fit and not obese was actually much more important to him. For reference, he is tall and atheletic, prone to skinniness and has never been overweight.

I think we all desire and DESERVE to be with someone that we find attractive and that he finds us attractive. I do agree that we need to love or at least accept ourselves before that is even possible. As time goes on, i am bothered less and less by my excess skin. I find myself wearing sleeveless tops and above the knee dresses or shorts on summer days. I even had someone who looked like a nice person hit on me at a music festival - he wasn't drunk or anything and I was wearing a sleeveless dress. Maybe that skin isn't as horrifying as it seems when we look in the mirror...

We judge ourselves so damn hard...

Truth of the matter is that even fit people aren't perfect looking (well, maybe this is even more true as we age!). When you are really "into" someone, well, speaking for myself, I don't even notice the flaws. It is like once they have struck that "attractive. sexy, desireable" string in my heart and mind - they look perfect to me even with their flaws. I don't know, but I suspect men are the same way. Once they are into you - as a person, as a sexual being, as woman, as a lover - they are pretty much "in" and don't really focus on the flaws.

The main take away from all of this is that while we need to sorta protect ourselves - like I would NEVER surprise someone with that hanging belly of mine...LOL... would rather have then say "no thank you" before I am naked! I do think that we also judge ourselves too hard. Self confidence, self love, self acceptance is incredibly sexy and never forget it. Never forget that we have a CHOICE. We have lots of choices when it comes to conducting our sex and love lives.

[CowgirlJane 14,259]

I love this!

I use the words that "we have the choice" but I am saying the same thing. I haven't found the love of my life, but you can be sure that he will be vying for my attention, not the other way around. I say that a little tongue in cheek because i am actually more of a 50-50 kinda gal, but I am NOT the type to think I need to somehow impress a guy or mold myself into what I imagine he will want. I want to get plastic surgery,not to find a man but because i love stylish form fitting clothes...LOL. If I a guy appreciates that too, wonderful, but i am doing it for ME!

To my way of thinking, the only mistake you made here was extending the privilege of being with you to some ass that didn't deserve it. We've all made those mistakes. I hope you slapped him hard and never intend to see him again. Clearly he was not worthy.

In most other species except humans, the females are the ones that get to be picky, and the males are the ones that have to preen, display, and court. The female decides if the male and his genes are worthy of her time and effort. Somewhere, somehow, we've allowed this to go backwards where human females feel like they need to be subservient and that they need to please and be chosen. That's not a biological imperative, that's a social subversion.

When I was single, the big change that occurred for me was when I treated every date as a job interview. And just to be clear, HE was interviewing for the position, not me. I was evaluating to see if he was the right guy for me. Change in mindset that changed my life.

Sending you hugs and hoping the as$hat gets what's coming to him