Size acceptance movement

[Wheetsin 714]

Right, I agree. As I read your statement it was "I can do things better because I am overweight". I was still a little confused when I read "...than many of the thinner biologists" because that's still making better = weight. But I think I get it.

As I said earlier I haven't been to the sites referenced, but my prior understanding of the size acceptance movement was more geared toward social acceptance than individual acceptance. More "don't discriminate against me" than "I'm still a good person."

But that's what is great about it. Two people, two perspectives.

[skyeblu79 0]

Right, I agree. As I read your statement it was "I can do things better because I am overweight". I was still a little confused when I read "...than many of the thinner biologists" because that's still making better = weight. But I think I get it.

As I said earlier I haven't been to the sites referenced, but my prior understanding of the size acceptance movement was more geared toward social acceptance than individual acceptance. More "don't discriminate against me" than "I'm still a good person."

But that's what is great about it. Two people, two perspectives.

That's pretty much what I got from it. I only referenced a few sites though.

Here is something else I found on Wikipedia-

"

The Fat Acceptance Movement, also referred to as the Fat Liberation Movement is a grassroots effort to change societal attitudes towards fat individuals. The movement consists today of a diverse group of people, who have different beliefs about how best to address fat-prejudice. Generally dated to the 1970s, the 1980s and 1990s witnessed the increase in activist organizations, publications, and conferences.

A major schism in the movement is found between those fat people who are still pursuing weight loss and those who are not. Opponents to weight loss attempts cite the high failure rate of all weight loss attempts (95-98%), the many dangers of yoyo weight fluctuations and so-called weight loss surgeries, and the repeatedly verified fact that fat people who exercise regularly and practice sound nutrition are as healthy as or healthier than sedentary thin people, dieters or WLS survivors. (Citations number in the thousands. Start with Sandy Szwarc's list of links at http://www.junkfoodscience.blogspot.com, as well as books by William Bennett, Joel Gurin, Paul Campos, etc. as delineated below. A USDA discussion of the recent U.C. Davis study confirming that fat acceptance maintains and improves health more than dieting may be found at http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar06/health0306.htm.) Due to intrinsic linguistic misunderstandings and differing definitions of the word "acceptance," some fat activists believe the phrase refers to any fat person fighting for equal rights and opportunities, regardless of whether or not that person believes pursuing weight loss is safe or feasible. Other fat activists define "fat acceptance" more strictly, applying that phrase only to fat people who are not pursuing weight loss, and instead using phrases such as "fat activist" to describe fat people and allies working more generally on fat civil rights issues. In practice, the only way to know a group's position on weight loss attempts is to ask, or read specific position papers on the issue."

[anonemouse 1]

More "don't discriminate against me" than "I'm still a good person."

But that's what is great about it. Two people, two perspectives. [/Quote]That is basically what I have said.

Saying that we, as a society, shouldn't accept it doesn't change that fact. Also, accepting obesity doesn't mean that we ignore the health problems that come with it. Accepting obesity only means that we aren't allowing our weight to limit our lives. It means that we don't blindly accept discrimination as our due. Accepting obesity means that we stop sheltering ourselves from the fact that the majority of the nation has weight problems and that we should actually do something to change it, not just sit around and say, "Well, diet and exercise will change everything." Obviously, that hasn't helped yet. Accepting obesity means doing research and developing more programs to change it, not just putting more and more quackery like OTC diet pills and herbal remedies out there.

[serious 2]

laurend, what you are saying here, "weight doe not define you as a person," etc, seems to run counter to what you said under the "Vanity" thread. There, you acknowledged that being overweight limited you both professionally and socially, as did almost everybody else who responded to that thread. I second what Marjon9 and Wheetsin are saying. My problem, again, with the size acceptance movement is that they have their own biases against people of size who choose WLS. And here, I am not only referencing the website I ran across, but a program that I saw on TLC. In a perfect world , everyone would accept everybody regardless. However, that is not our reality. Having WLS in all its various forms is not an easy decision, nor is it the easy way out as I know we all here can attest, but it was my decision, (and my money), and it was the best decision for me. I have a sister that is morbidly obese. She does not choose to have WLS, and I respect her decision. However, she acknowledges that if she was smaller her life would be more manageable, (like for instance, she would be able to tie her own shoes), but she prefers not to have surgery, and that's her choice.

[anonemouse 1]

Look, your weight does limit you, but it shouldn't define you. Obviously, a fat person can't run fast, can't do a lot of things. But it shouldn't change you as a person. You shouldn't define yourself as a fat person, but rather as a person who happens to be fat. Does that make sense? Define yourself as a person first, and as fat somewhere down the line. I think that is what size-acceptance is all about, not letting society define you as a "fat person" and nothing else. Yes, in this society, we let our weight define us as people and limit us. We let society tell us what we can or can't do, how we should look, how we should feel about ourselves. But the size-acceptance movement is saying that letting that continue isn't right. Ideally, it should lead to an acceptance of people of all sizes, whether you are underweight or overweight. Size-acceptance should be about not telling people what they should be doing, whether it is gaining weight or losing weight, and accepting people at the weight they are. Yes, we all know that being overweight has a lot of repercussions on your health. You would have to be an idiot not to. Having it constantly shoved in our faces does nothing to help us, and in many cases makes us feel even worse about ourselves. Like I said earlier, most of us have other problems, but weight is just the most visible.

[DevilMayKare 1]

But the fact that it is hard does not make it impossible. I mean, to take an extreme example, if 10 morbidly obese people moved to North Korea, in 2 years they would all come back thin. Diet and exercise work, it's just that it is really hard to apply those remedies in this society.

Well you're probably right in that they'd come back thin, but where would they be 5 years AFTER they came back? I don't think it's just that weightloss is hard, it's that the hard part lasts everyday for the rest of your life. I've lost over 50 pounds at least 6 times in my life--and kept it off for as much as 3 years, but sooner or later I can't stand the feeling of deprevation and I stop exercising my guts out... and I gain.

Most of the thin people I know do NOT have to be hungry and do NOT workout an hour a day. That's pretty much what I have to do to lose and keep weight off and it's just a real hard wagon to stay on. And BTW, the band has NOT made that easier. I lost 70# the first 10 months of being banded--and almost 2 years later have gained it all back.

Intellectually (& wistfully) I'm all for fat acceptance. I think it's a great movement and I wish everyone would join it. I wish I were brave and strong enough to accept myself and stand proudly like Vines does. I admire everyone who can overcome the judgment and hatred of our society; but I'd have to stop judging and hating myself first and I just don't think that's gonna happen.

[marjon9 6]

DevilMayKare, everyone has their own path to follow. As I said, I'm not trying to change anyone else. All I'm doing is describing the way the world looks to me.

I feel responsible for myself and my own actions. I feel especially responsible for myself as a modern citizen of the United States, where I have ten times the wealth and ten times the freedom of almost everyone else who lives in the world now, or who ever has lived in the world. I am simply not able to form the concept in my mind that others are to blame for my own choices. I'm fat and I know I did it to myself. If this causes problems for me in my life, I accept total responsibility for that. My problems in life are not caused by everyone else's flaws and everyone else's inability to "accept" me.

None of this is directed at you or anyone else in particular. I don't mean to make anyone angry or hurt anyone's feelings when I say these things. I'm just describing how it looks to me.

[serious 2]

Laurend, I see your point. Being fat is only one aspect of me, and for me it really doesn't define me, because I feel with the help of the lap band, in addition to some other things I'm doing towards self-empowerment, I feel I have a fighting chance. However, I realize that it will be a constant battle, but a lot of things in life are... Don't apologize Marjon9, you also have the freedom to express your opinion. What's great about this board as opposed to some others is that people seem to respect that. We can agree to disagree. To me, if we as a society could have more open discourse like we do on this board, then there would be more tolerance and acceptance of everybody.

[KariK 0]

One of the most poignant (sp?) things I've ever heard was from a man who had AIDS. He said that he was not dying of AIDS, he was instead LIVING with AIDS, and until he'd breathed his last breath he would be LIVING.

You can look at things with your glass half empty or half full.

I think the POS movement is about how you want to look at yourself as a MO individual. Do you want to think of yourself in terms of self-hatred ie; 'Im a fat pig', or do you want to think of yourself as a work in progress and currently MO, and a person of size? We are all works in progress in my oppinion, we all just have differant things to work on. Even the skinniest super models have thier own problems.. like cocaine, anorexia, etc. Yet they are super?? LOL POS aren't trying to be called super-sized. Give me a break its just a gentler way of saying MO. Whats wrong with learning decent/nice terms to describe oneself and others? Another example of this same concept -there was a time when it was ok to refer to dwarfs as midgets, and now they prefer the term 'little people'.

[Altalomaguy 0]

The Size acceptance movement is to divergent to really cover in one blanket state about if I think it's a good idea or not. There are too many different ideas about what it should entail. It ranges from simple to militant with people who still want to lose weight and those who consider them traitors to the cause.

However, I do think there is something seriously wrong with society when you ask a group of children to think of words to describe an outline shaped like a child and the overweight outline gets works like "ugly", "stupid", and "bad" attached to it. (real study!)

This “you did it to yourselves” crud doesn’t fly either! Try going up to someone who smoked and now has lung cancer and is on chemo and start cracking jokes about how they “did it to themselves” and see how long it is before a family member rightfully knocks you on your butt. Sure they really did “do it to themselves” but they don’t deserve to be mocked or discriminated against for it.

By the time I was able to control my personal eating habits (I was able to pick out and pay for myself) I was already morbidly obese. I also had 18 years of bad eating habits ingrained in my mind AND my body to overcome. Once you reach a certain level of obesity it almost becomes a constant battle against your own body who is now used to being fat. Like it was previously mentioned you can only ever shrink your fat cells once you grow them. That’s why it’s much easier to stay thin than get thin and keep it. It’s also one of the reasons the vast vast majority of people fail at diets.

So I agree with the parts of the Size Acceptance Movement that attempts to change societies perception that “it’s their fault”, and the faulty “if they weren’t so lazy and would just diet” lines of thinking. I also agree that it isn’t just or fair to be subject to discrimination or ridicule for what amounts to a medical condition that is extremely hard to remedy.

On the other hand I don’t agree with the parts of the Size Acceptance movement that deny the clear problems morbid obesity poses to ones health. Hey, I’ll be honest, I know very few overweight people who got overweight while doing consistent exercise. I may think they have a point with the dangers of constant weight yo-yoing, but definitely do not think they need to flame someone because they consider WLS.

[marjon9 6]

This “you did it to yourselves” crud doesn’t fly either! Try going up to someone who smoked and now has lung cancer and is on chemo and start cracking jokes about how they “did it to themselves” and see how long it is before a family member rightfully knocks you on your butt. Sure they really did “do it to themselves” but they don’t deserve to be mocked or discriminated against for it

So which is it? On the one hand you say that this "you did it to yourself" point of view is "crud." Next you acknowledge that "sure, they really did do it to themselves." So, I'm confused. All I'm saying is, they really did do it to themselves.

And who said anything about mocking anyone for being fat, for smoking, or anything else? My point of view is not about mocking or blaming others. It is about being honest with myself.

I think it makes sense to take personal responsibility for what happens to you in your own life. In my opinion if you view yourself as a victim of circumstances you will have a tendency to remain stuck in self-pity instead of taking action. Yes, it is hard to avoid obesity in America. But it's not impossible, and it is the responsibility of each of us to do what it takes to solve this problem. If we are fat it is not because of McDonalds, it is not because other people are flawed for failing to "accept" us. If we are fat it's because we have not yet found a solution for ourselves to this very difficult problem.

I just refuse to feel like a victim. This is my life. It's my responsibility. This is true whether some calls me "tubby" or whether McDonalds sells me a Big Mac. The things that happen to me in my life are not somebody else's fault.

[skyeblu79 0]

One of the most poignant (sp?) things I've ever heard was from a man who had AIDS. He said that he was not dying of AIDS, he was instead LIVING with AIDS, and until he'd breathed his last breath he would be LIVING.

You can look at things with your glass half empty or half full.

I think the POS movement is about how you want to look at yourself as a MO individual. Do you want to think of yourself in terms of self-hatred ie; 'Im a fat pig', or do you want to think of yourself as a work in progress and currently MO, and a person of size? We are all works in progress in my oppinion, we all just have differant things to work on. Even the skinniest super models have thier own problems.. like cocaine, anorexia, etc. Yet they are super?? LOL POS aren't trying to be called super-sized. Give me a break its just a gentler way of saying MO. Whats wrong with learning decent/nice terms to describe oneself and others? Another example of this same concept -there was a time when it was ok to refer to dwarfs as midgets, and now they prefer the term 'little people'.

That's how I see it too...

And as far as the people who keep saying that Size Acceptance is anti-WLS I don't really think so. There are tons of people that feel that way that aren't part of the Size Acceptance Movement. It seems to be the opinion of some in the movement. It's their perogative, just like everyone else.

[Wheetsin 714]

I just refuse to feel like a victim. This is my life. It's my responsibility. This is true whether some calls me "tubby" or whether McDonalds sells me a Big Mac. The things that happen to me in my life are not somebody else's fault.

I couldn't agree more. But I have also been called out for voicing this opinion, with the claim that it gives people a green light to judge us. I never really understood how owning up to your own actions = "jusge me"... but I don't know that I could understand that since I'm so much of the opposite opinion. McDonald's didn't make us fat, putting the McDonald's in our mouths 4 times a week did.

I also sincerely believe that most obese people could lose their weight on their own if their compulsion to lose the weight was greater than their compulsion to eat, be fat, etc. I know it's controversial here, but I still believe it completely. (needs a lot more explanation to be voiced adequately, but that's a different thread) No, that's not the same as saying "I want to be fat"... who wants to be fat? Ok there are a few, but...

Although I know several who claim it, I have yet to meet an overweight person who, on some level, has truly not allowed it to define who they are. Being at odds against any societal norm - almost by definition - adds something to your character... be it "negative" or "positive"... it's virtually unavoidable.

[serious 2]

That's how I see it too...

And as far as the people who keep saying that Size Acceptance is anti-WLS I don't really think so. There are tons of people that feel that way that aren't part of the Size Acceptance Movement. It seems to be the opinion of some in the movement. It's their perogative, just like everyone else.

Well, skyeblu, you should then read "The BIG FAT BLOG" which is one of blog sites for the size acceptance movement. They are very anti-WLS. The Size Acceptance movement itself, acknowledges that they are having trouble staying afloat as there are so many divergent views about what they should be about, as was referenced previously. As far as being tons of people who are anti WLS who aren't part of the size acceptance movement, I know, I was one of them. I have not been fat my whole life. But after trying diet after diet and gaining more and more weight, I had to give WLS a fresh look. After doing three years of research, I changed my mind about it and found it to be a viable option. Anyway, this thread is about what we think of the size acceptance movement, so that is why I specifically addressed the anti-weight loss sentiment I have found among a group of people who are also part of the size acceptance community. Are all of them anti-weight loss? No, of course not, just like our group has different opinions about what works: some in the WLS community think the Lap band is not helpful and prefer RNY, some like DS, some think Gastric bypass surgery is the way to go,etc. In any group you are going to have different views.

As a multicutural female, I have been around people from different cultures and ethnic backgrounds who complain when they are discrimminated against. But it doesn't make it right for them to turn around and do the very same thing to the groups they are complaining about. My point being, as has been my point throughout this discussion, that if you want people to accept you, then accept them. I have chosen, as an overweight person, to use the tools available to me to try to overcome my weight problem. I don't realistically expect the Fat Acceptance community to embrace me, but to be accepting of my choice, as I am accepting of my overweight family and friends who are happy with their weight and choose not to have surgery or to diet. I am very surprised that I am being flamed on a lap band surgery site.

[Wheetsin 714]

I am very surprised that I am being flamed on a lap band surgery site.

Where has any flaming occured?