The Biblical Case for Pro-Choice & Stem Cell Research

[Betsyjane 2]

Amen to that. :-)

[sweethot143 2]

Twisting scripture?

Adam was a fully developed man before God breathed life into him and until Adam took his first breath he was not considered a man nor did he have a soul.

Why should a fetus be any different from Adam in God's eyes before it becomes a baby and takes it's first breath? Is a fetus growing in a women's womb any more of a miracle than God taking dust and creating a man? Yes, the man (Adam) was dead and soul-less at first, but that first breath brought humanity and a soul to Adam.

Is an embryo more of a human than the body of Adam before God breathed life into it? Does an embryo have a soul because a lab technician forced a microscopic sperm cell through the shell of a microscopic egg? Or does it take God to put a soul into that embryo? Would God go around putting souls into every embryo that technicians fertilize at every lab in the world? Or would he have the infinite patience to wait until the embryo is implanted, becomes a fetus and finally is born as a human baby? My money goes on God being intelligent and patient enough to save his precious souls for implanting into babies who are born. Not into embryos or even babies who will be aborted or still born.

What would God do with a still born baby or an aborted fetus or a 16 cell embryo? Would God send them to Hell? Would God allow them into Heaven? Would God reuse that soul in another body? “Who are we to question God's ways" some might say.

I say, "don't question God's ways, just read Genesis 2.7 and see that God only placed a soul (and simultaneously life) into Adam upon Adam's first breath".

If my interpretation of scripture is twisted, where is scripture that contradicts my interpretation of "Genesis 2.7"?

i totally not getting into the abortion debate again. BTDT.

The scripture doesn't say that adam was not a soul until he took his first breath. We don't know what the original scripture said, who knows how that was interpreted or how many times it was.

Oh well to each his own, if it helps you rationalize murder than go for it.

BTW, if a child dies in the womb it goes to heaven. Any child that dies before the age of 8 does. They are not accountable until the age of 8.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

i totally not getting into the abortion debate again. BTDT.

The scripture doesn't say that adam was not a soul until he took his first breath. We don't know what the original scripture said, who knows how that was interpreted or how many times it was.

So which scripture do you go by? Do you have an original edition? My Bible says, “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” If Adam became a living soul, then he wasn't one until that point.

Oh well to each his own, if it helps you rationalize murder than go for it.

That is your unsubstantiated opinion. Neither the law nor the Bible (except maybe for your original edition) validate that concept.

Well some religions have taught that any child not Baptized can not go to Heaven. If you are right, then maybe we should pin medals on child murders for sending children to Heaven.

I wish I had your original edition of ther Bible.

[wavydaby 1]

8? where does it say in the Bible you are not "liable for your actions" until your 8?

[sweethot143 2]

i never said i had an original edition, i'm just saying you are taking each word literally, making assumptions.

the only way youl know if what you are saying is true is to pray and ask if it is true.

i know the Bible has been translated so many times, I personally use the King James version which is supposed to be the most correct, but even that version King James supposedly tweeked to his liking.

In my religion we believe that the age of accountability is 8, it's not number in the Bible but it is in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

Ofcourse I know that non Mormoms wouldn't take that as fact, I wouldn't have either 6 years ago. But TOM, seemed as if he had no answers at all for that.

Makes sense though, my 2 year old cannot repent of her sins, if she has any. she doesn't understand. God is just and fair, why would he damn her to hell?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

i never said i had an original edition, i'm just saying you are taking each word literally, making assumptions.

the only way youl know if what you are saying is true is to pray and ask if it is true.

i know the Bible has been translated so many times, I personally use the King James version which is supposed to be the most correct, but even that version King James supposedly tweeked to his liking.

In my religion we believe that the age of accountability is 8, it's not number in the Bible but it is in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

Ofcourse I know that non Mormoms wouldn't take that as fact, I wouldn't have either 6 years ago. But TOM, seemed as if he had no answers at all for that.

Makes sense though, my 2 year old cannot repent of her sins, if she has any. she doesn't understand. God is just and fair, why would he damn her to hell?

I have read part of the "Book of Mormon". My best friend became a Mormon and then he became a hateful person, dispicing Blacks, Jews and Catholics alike. I do not judge other Mormons based on him and that is why I bought the "Book of Mormon" to read. It is the same reason that I bought and read "The Holy Qur'an".

You can put your faith into the book of Mormon and I hope you are happy and get the reward you seek, but where in the book of Mormon does it say abortion is murder?

It also makes sense that a just and fair God would not send an aborted fetus to Hell or a 16 cell embryo in a petri dish to Hell either.

[sweethot143 2]

I have read part of the "Book of Mormon". My best friend became a Mormon and then he became a hateful person, dispicing Blacks, Jews and Catholics alike. I do not judge other Mormons based on him and that is why I bought the "Book of Mormon" to read. It is the same reason that I bought and read "The Holy Qur'an".

You can put your faith into the book of Mormon and I hope you are happy and get the reward you seek, but where in the book of Mormon does it say abortion is murder?

It also makes sense that a just and fair God would not send an aborted fetus to Hell or a 16 cell embryo in a petri dish to Hell either.

sorry to hear about your friend. I would say that there are bad apples in every bunch. I have a baptist friend who is great but her church actually preaches from the pulpit negative about other religions including the Mormons. I know the Mormon church would never do that, especially since we don't think any of those religions are wrong, we agree that most are good and doing good things for the Earth, we all believe in the same God (most). We just know they are not complete. That's all.

Your also right, i don't think an aborted baby would go to Hell. They would just never get the opportunity that they deserved, to gain a physical body and be tested here on Earth. I don't know enough about the embryo research to have an oppinion as to wether or not that is also murder.

The President of the Church said not to have an abortion, and that it is wrong, there are few exceptions in which the decision would be made in counsel with the Bishop and heavenly Father. Any thing that comes down from the President is considered modern day revelation. Again, I wouldn't expect people from other religions to consider it that.

In 1973, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement regarding abortion, which is still applicable today:

"The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer."

Ofcourse I understand that is our religions practice and may not be yours. I still stand against it. and really don't want to debate it. I just posted that for answers to your questions.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

In 1973, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement regarding abortion, which is still applicable today:

"The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer."

Ofcourse I understand that is our religions practice and may not be yours. I still stand against it. and really don't want to debate it. I just posted that for answers to your questions.

Sorry. It is too late. You have been debating it for quite a while. There is no harm in it. I will not call you any nasty names nor will I mock or condemn your religion.

I am curious. Why does a fetus conceived through rape not deserve the same protection as one produced by a loving husband and wife who have the church's permission to have a child?

Why is it not a murder to abort a fetus conceived through rape but a murder to abort a fetus conceived by a loving husband and wife who have the church's permission to have a child?

Seems like the fetus is being blamed for the actions of a rapist.

I know that Roman Catholics believe the word of the Pope is divine, but where is that in the Bible? I wonder if the President of the Mormon Church's word being divine is spelled out in the "Book of Mormon"?

[Wheetsin 714]

i don't think an aborted baby would go to Hell. They would just never get the opportunity that they deserved, to gain a physical body

Abortion aside, at what point do you believe babies "get" bodies? If it's a baby that gets aborted, but the aborted baby doesn't have a body, what exactly is it?

You say you don't want to debate, but it never works well to just throw your opinion out there and then run away. "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" has a lot of merit to it. You seem comfortable, though perhaps a little confused and inconsistent, in sharing your beliefs and opinions... as long as no one questions them. When you're challenged it seems to quickly turn into "I don't want to debate" or "oh that's not what I meant". If you're firm in what you believe, why not be willing to stand by it? And if the answer is something like, "I don't have to explain myself" or "it's not worth the effort" -- then why post them in Rants & Raves?

[sweethot143 2]

Abortion aside, at what point do you believe babies "get" bodies? If it's a baby that gets aborted, but the aborted baby doesn't have a body, what exactly is it?

You say you don't want to debate, but it never works well to just throw your opinion out there and then run away. "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" has a lot of merit to it. You seem comfortable, though perhaps a little confused and inconsistent, in sharing your beliefs and opinions... as long as no one questions them. When you're challenged it seems to quickly turn into "I don't want to debate" or "oh that's not what I meant". If you're firm in what you believe, why not be willing to stand by it? And if the answer is something like, "I don't have to explain myself" or "it's not worth the effort" -- then why post them in Rants & Raves?

I know it's an argument I won't win simply because I have different beliefs than you. That's fine with me. It's not that i'm confused about what I believe, i'm just now a Word Master like some others, and when typing and you can't hear a tone, things can be taken the wrong way and be read into much more than if we were speaking to one another.

I don't know, I guess i'm just sick of the abortion discussion, i was just commenting on the twisting of scripture that's all.

Afterall, I won't be the one who is being judged for killing babies, and I wouldn't be the one who stands out front abortion clinics protesting. I just stand by my belief that it is wrong, i'll never have one, and if one of my friends did, I would lose total respect for them.

[Betsyjane 2]

What do you believe should happen to those little babies who were not wanted but whose mothers are forced to have them?

[BJean 16]

sweethot: I don't understand exactly. You would lose total respect for a friend who was raped and/or under extreme mental distress from an unwanted pregnancy, who then chose to abort the fetus so that she might regain her sanity and health?

Would you be able to respect a good friend, who was distressed because her daughter had an abortion, and in such extreme anguish that she felt driven to do all of society a favor by putting the neighborhood abortion clinic out of business by burning it down?

Life isn't simple. Circumstances are not always textbook simple. For instance, one might say that if their husband ever cheated on them, they could never forgive him. Then one day that person learns that her husband did cheat on her. Not only that, but she learns that his girlfriend is pregnant with his baby. The girlfriend is in such poor mental health over it that either the fetus will need to be aborted or the baby will need to be moved into her and her cheating husband's home. I guess most people would just throw the bum out and wash their hands of the entire matter.

But then that complicates things a bit because maybe that wife cannot support herself and her children. She wants the cheating husband to continue to take care of her, but he doesn't really make enough money to be able to sustain two households, get the girlfriend psychiatric help and support a new baby. This means her own children will suffer.

Things are not simple. You can lead a simple, pure, by-the-Book-of-Morman life, but most people find that difficult. As long as you don't have to make really hard, mind shattering decisions, it's easy to say what you'd do and what you expect your friends to do in an gut and mind wrenching situation. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Separation of church and state!!!

[skyeblu79 0]

Anyone who actively contributes to stopping the advancment of stem-cell research is comitting an egregious crime against humanity. Although I would never wish illness on anyone, I do think how ironic it would be if some of these anti stem-cell research folks were to come down with an illness that ruins their quality of life, and they have to suffer in a wheelchair with a feeding tube and breathing machine, when they would have been able to be cured by stem cell research. How could they look at someone with one of these types of illnesses and ever justify their stance? Funny how when it really hits home and you actually SEE people who could be cured, you change your tune, like the Reagans!

Tissue used in stem cell research would never be viable fetuses. It's truly disgusting and sickening that anyone would stand in the way of this very important scientific advancement.

That is so true. It's a shame it has to get to that point before people can learn to have compassion for other people.

[gadgetlady 4]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16513279/site/newsweek/

[BJean 16]

Gadgetlady: Interesting article. Thanks.