My Christmas Message

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Actually I do think that we should all have a common language in the USA and even though I am a liberal and liberals generally don't support English as a common language, I do. But, not because English is superior (as some people like to think), but because since more people in the USA speak English than any other language, it would be the easiest transition.

My objection is to people who want to use the inability to speak English as a way to discriminate. Pat Buchanan who ran for president in the Republican Primaries in 1996 and 2000, wants to only let people who are white and come from English speaking countries to be able to legally migrate to the USA. But he is not prejudice, they say.

If you go to Europe or many other places, or even airports and bus terminals in the USA, you will see signs in a universal language; pictures.

When I first got into computers (early 1960's), it was required that people learn very intricate languages like Cobol and Fortran. Very few people became fluent, most people were not able to have the benefit of a computer and computers cost in the millions of dollars. Then someone at Stanford University and at the Palo Alto Research Center, got the idea of using pictures instead of words. People, then found it easier to use computers (because they did not have to learn the languages) and now most people own computers and are able to do things they never dreamed of doing, like writing this reply to your post, and PC's which have the power of computers that used to cost $5,000,000 can be bought for less than $500. All because we didn't get hung up on language.

This country needs immigrants as workers and as consumers. We can help them learn English. They will melt in if they are not isolated into pockets by language or by fear of deportation. In the late 1950's, Brooklyn had a huge influx of Puerto Ricans. One of 5 people in my 6th grade class could not speak English. Today, many of the grand-children of my classmates can not speak Spanish. Many of them eat as much American food as traditional Puerto Rican food. I learned that I love Puerto Rican food. I benefited and they benefited.

If immigrants are given a chance to become citizens, by first allowing them to get green cards and go through a citizenship process, they will gradually blend in. Here in Florida, about half the people I see on local TV shows (news for example) have Spanish surnames and they speak perfect English and would not be singled out as Spanish-Americans except by their name.

I am Italian-American and when I go to many places to register for something, people start speaking to me in Spanish because my last name is spelled like it could be Spanish.

There will always be flux. Whatever is changing always annoys some people who would like to keep the status quo. Sorry, but life moves on. Read the papers from the 1800's or 1900's. We have been here before, and we survived and thrived.

[BJean 16]

Well I'm no Pat Buchanan, thank you very much. I do not believe that English is a superior language either, especially the way most of us speak and write it, but I agree with you that it is already the dominant language and I believe that it would help people to have the clarification that it is the accepted language of the land.

I do not seek to exclude people. I seek to include them. I want us to be proactive in turning this country into a true melting pot. I specifically don't want us to be the bigoted, biased country that we have been in the past. I want us to recognize that changes need to be made and they should be made in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for everyone.

I am impatient. I want to knock sense into people. I want the political machinery to work better and make sensible, user friendly laws. Like the icons on computers did (which was a good way for you to explain how what I want can actually be achieved in this country, to everyone's benefit).

Green's story of related current and past events in Canada underscores to me how difficult the job is, even when people try to make it happen. In this country, it seems to me that the Patrick Buchanans, Pat Robertsons and Bushy-heads are taking us back into the dark days of segregation. They want Mexicans here for their labor. They don't seem to care if Mexicans who come to the U.S. are integrated into our society and are in a position to achieve the "American dream" but they really want is Mexicans to come here to give their profit-making corporations cheap labor. They don't care about the cheap labor so as to lower prices for all Americans. They want cheap labor so that they can make more profit.

I want us to have the kind of reality check that causes us to insist that some of these problems regarding illegal aliens are solved. I want the laws that are not working to be changed. Right now those laws give power to the Pat Buchanans of this country. It's very ugly and that's what I'm ranting and raving about.

I just don't say it well. I do not have the talent to write as concisely or as well as some of you do, and probably do not have the intellect either. But I am passionate. That is for sure. I care about how Americans treat each other and how they treat the rest of the world. It scares hell out of me that there are so many of us who claim to be good Christians and claim to be born again to do God's will, but who speak and behave in such a way that they must make Satan proud.

[green 6]

I just don't say it well. I do not have the talent to write as concisely or as well as some of you do, and probably do not have the intellect either. But I am passionate. That is for sure. I care about how Americans treat each other and how they treat the rest of the world. It scares hell out of me that there are so many of us who claim to be good Christians and claim to be born again to do God's will, but who speak and behave in such a way that they must make Satan proud.

Au contraire, you write very well, grrl, and do yourself a misjustice with respect to your assessment of your intellect as well. Although I am personally often mistrustful of passion - it is so often backed up with nothing more than sound bite philosophy - it strikes me that your concern, and that of TOM and of many, many others of the people who post here is with the democratisation of America.

My hunch is that you are concerned that a lot of voices have become lost over the past 3 decades or so, that the very folks whom the Statue of Liberty once welcomed have no longer a place in America. Of course the issue is, with respect to the illegals, how?

(There is, ironically, quite a large number of Canucks - both legal and illegal - infesting your country, too.:heh: )

Europe has dealt with that problem by allowing all members of the Economic Union countries to move and work freely within the Union. North America has NAFTA but this does not extend to the movement of personnel.

Both Canada and America have need of citizens who will undertake those jobs which longtime Canadians and Americans are not interested in. We need nannies, cabbies, gardeners, security guards, cleaners, etc. These might be considered level entry jobs, a way of paying for your entry into your new country.

Both Canada and America are losing well-paid unionized blue collar jobs to Mexico where the labour is cheap and the environmental and labour safety laws are nonexistent. Companies can do this because of NAFTA and shareholders and senior company personnel profit. This is nice for the rich folks but distressing for those families who find themselves without jobs. For those towns which are single-economy based towns it is a disaster. For those young Americans and Canadians who are not cut out to be professionals or technicians the disappearance of these manufacturing jobs is bad news. As for the environment, well, we must remember that environmental pollution never remains a purely local issue. The Sh$t does drift.

Green's unpopular and probably dim-witted solution would be to reframe NAFTA so that this alliance becomes closer in style to that of the European Economic Union. By doing this Mexico would no longer be an economic colony of the northern countries and the issue of illegal immigration would be put to rest.

Mexicans could then legally move northward in order to work but Mexico would also be subject to our labour standards with respect to health, the environment, and pay for work. As the Mexican working conditions improve there will be fewer migrants; folks like to stay where they are socially at home. And maybe too, once labour in Mexico is not such a bargain some of those jobs that left the rust belts of the north might make their way back there.

As for Canada, your northern neighbour, our population is very small: we only number 35 million and we follow the European demographic profile. We are not very good at having babies. We really rely on immigration in order to keep our population and our economy growing. We have a big problem up here in the great white north. Maybe we could do with an injection of Mexican-Canadians. Taco-Bell has already colonized Canada.

[BJean 16]

Green: Your posts always provide humor and are thought provoking, which I really appreciate very much. When I think about Canada and its' lower population and the sweetness of the people I encountered when I lived there, I definitely think about relocating to the great white north. Alas, it is probably not a real possibility.

When Mexicans work in the U.S. and get the low paying jobs that everyone says Americans don't want, and they live in Mexico, they can eke out a better living than without the U.S. jobs. However, if they are living on the economy in the U.S., how long do you think they will be happy working as hard as they do for the money that they get? I mean to say, if we gave them the freedom to move here as long as they are willing to take those jobs, I wonder how long we could depend on it to be mutually rewarding.

So your suggestion for a plan similar to Europe's makes more sense and it appeals to me for several reasons. If only our president would make some gesture in that direction. Let's face it, that would only happen if we got some of the large American corporations interested, because that's what motivates this president.

That is what makes me so mad: the greed and disrespect for people without money and power in this administration. Thank goodness we have a few people in the newly elected Congress making some noise.

Our icy frigid weather lately has made me want to take a fast boat to Bali. You in?

[green 6]

Yep, let's Green and BJean run off to Bali together. I just spoke to my signif other and he said he would be okay with that. I'm game if you are.

[green 6]

Green is dreaming of Bali. She's never been there and her passport is current.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

If you don't mind a male joining this love fest, I would like to say that I generally agree with very much of what both you, Green and you, BJean write. BJean and I may have seemed to be at each other's throats on this issue, going back and forth, but though some may have inferred it, I did not assume nor insinuate that BJean is anything like Pat Buchanan, nor that she wants to exclude people from the USA's benefits or opportunities.

I think that if BJean and I were sitting across a table having lunch or a cup of coffee, we would be agreeing on 99% of what each other say. The PC forum is a great way to exchange ideas, but it can not compare with direct conversation for nuance and interpretation of ideas.

I also want the immigrants to be able to work, and to be able to prosper and have the same chance at promotion as any other citizen does. My biggest gripe with the BuSh plan for immigration was that immigrant guest workers would be tied to one sponsoring company, which could have him deported if he didn't kiss butt and allow abuse.

[green 6]

If you don't mind a male joining this love fest, I would like to say that I generally agree with very much of what both you, Green and you, BJean write. BJean and I may have seemed to be at each other's throats on this issue, going back and forth, but though some may have inferred it, I did not assume nor insinuate that BJean is anything like Pat Buchanan, nor that she wants to exclude people from the USA's benefits or opportunities.

I think that if BJean and I were sitting across a table having lunch or a cup of coffee, we would be agreeing on 99% of what each other say. The PC forum is a great way to exchange ideas, but it can not compare with direct conversation for nuance and interpretation of ideas.

I also want the immigrants to be able to work, and to be able to prosper and have the same chance at promotion as any other citizen does. My biggest gripe with the BuSh plan for immigration was that immigrant guest workers would be tied to one sponsoring company, which could have him deported if he didn't kiss butt and allow abuse.

I think you know that we three are all on the same page, kiddo. Hey, do you and you wife want to go to Bali with us? I come from a Brit background and promise never to hug her.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I think you know that we three are all on the same page, kiddo. Hey, do you and you wife want to go to Bali with us? I come from a Brit background and promise never to hug her.

Sounds great, but I don't think we can hack it right now.

[BJean 16]

The passport is valid and up to date on this end. If we can get TOM to join us we could bill it as a working trip. We might be able to come up with a viable plan for immigration issues near and far.

I would welcome the chance to break bread over lunch or dip our biscotti in a steaming cup of java together and hash out the details. Wonder if there's a Starbucks in Bali? Silly question, of course there is.

I too believe that we're about 99% in agreement. I'm sure I wandered off on a tangent and sounded like a maniac. It is all just so frustrating. I am glad that we have this venue to vent and read what others have to say. Finding like minded people here is comforting.

[green 6]

Starbucks and Balinese cuisine...how heavenly! And beaches!! We could go swimming.

A holiday like this would be splendid. I've just come back from brawling over at the Anti-Semitism in France thread. I didn't comport myself with any grace or serenity at all. *blush* I think I need a holiday.....:phanvan

[BJean 16]

I leave you alone for a few hours and you get into trouble, Green. We both need a holiday! I had to get a grip thinking about white sandy beaches, coconut milk drinks, tiki torches, moonlight swims - and wearing a swimsuit around natives chubbier than me, not a bad scenario, a? That's the only way I can recover from popping off at Jack over at "...worst American President." We have cabin fever and no real cabin (with a palm frond roof).

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Starbucks and Balinese cuisine...how heavenly! And beaches!! We could go swimming.

A holiday like this would be splendid. I've just come back from brawling over at the Anti-Semitism in France thread. I didn't comport myself with any grace or serenity at all. *blush* I think I need a holiday.....:phanvan

You made a mistake, but the person in question used innuendo rather that outright name calling. Comparing some of us to thieves, liars and murderers, saying that some of us crawl out of the woodworks and insinuating that being here compared to being in Sodom was not conducive to civil discourse and I have to admit, I was not civil at times which saddens me and makes me want to take a vacation (from posting).

[BJean 16]

Sometimes it's easier to get insulting than it is to come up with a fresh retort. Especially if you have your bikini in a wad.

[green 6]

Green was in a state of high snittery and did have her size extra large atheist bloomers in a twist.:cry