Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[~Pam~ 0]

I can't think of many places Christian missionaries haven't ventured forth...and yet, five out every six people on this planet are NOT Christians. (Give or take a million or so in either direction.)

Well Sue, that actually DOES go along with what the Bible says...

In Matthew 7:13-14, it says:

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

If they are right...it's probably a party I'd rather not attend anyway. If they are wrong because their interpretation was wrong, I wonder how severely they'll be judged...relative to how they judge others. If they're wrong because all there REALLY is, is a guy behind a curtain, then it will all have been much ado about nothing.

If I am wrong, then at least I lived a good, moral life (not saying you haven't!). I haven't judged anyone, I've simply given Scripture references on questions that were asked of us. It sure does seem that you are judging me and other Christians though, but that's between you and God I suppose. The worst that can happen is that I'm wrong and there is no God and we simply cease to exist after we die.

But what if YOU are wrong Sue? What's the worst that can happen to you? (I say that out of great concern only :cry ).

I wonder how so many people--especially the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, because to me, there IS no major difference--can so truly believe in things for which there is not now (nor has there ever been) a shred of proof to be had...but if that's what gets them through the cold winter nights.

There are so many things inaccurate with that statement that I don't even know where to start....

I guess the bottom line is, we both have the right to make whatever decision we want to regading our personal religious beliefs. I have made my choice, and you have made yours. Not much else to say... *shrug*

[green 6]

I find it impossible to believe in God, any God, for I have seen no evidence of one. This is why I am an atheist. There are quite a few of us and I frequent a website where I find many other atheists. Believers do enter this site in order to debate with us and one of their concerns is that a disbelief or an unbelief in a higher power will free people up from behaving in a morally and socially correct fashion. Remove God (our hall monitor) from the equation and anarchy will follow.

In fact this is not true. Most humans are by nature caring, empathic creatures. We don't enjoy seeing others suffer. This is human nature at its healthiest. It might be argued that we are programmed to respond in this fashion. Afterall, we, like dogs, do live in packs/social groups, don't we? Bad behaviour only leads to the collapse of our families, our towns and our nations. Instinctually and intellectually it makes sense to us to uphold the laws of the land, and these are only a formal codification of our own sense of morality and righteousness.

The moral burden thrust upon the thoughtful atheist is, if anything, greater than that the believer has to bear. For those of you who believe in an afterlife the sight of people who are suffering is mitigated by the belief that they will eventually be rewarded somewhere down the road. For us unbelievers watching the pain that these unfortunates must suffer carries a different weight. We know that this is the only show in town. When you are dead, you are dead. You only achieve immortality through your genetic contribution. And maybe you can help out the miserable ones by being a decent, stand-up human being while you are still alive for you understand that this really is it.

[green 6]

And as for you who believe, how do any of you know that your God is the right God? You all believe with equal intensity, it seems to me. What if you all fry 'em in Hell Baptists croak and then find out that Allah is the one true God? It seems to me that we really have no way of knowing, do we? It might be a good thing to tread carefully in the presence of the Ineffable - that is if you believe in Him - for you have no idea as to which shape or form He might take, eh. This is just a suggestion.

[Carlene 12]

First off, I never said that you said you were a Baptist. To break it down, I basically saying that you were bringing back some 2nd hand information. I know your not a Baptist, never said you were!! You are trying to tell me what we believe from what you hear from your Southern Baptist friends.

Sorry...miscommunication. I thought, when you said I was quoting stuff like I was a Baptist, that you meant I was impersonating one. I was not trying to tell you what Baptists believe - only that the Baptists I know do not believe suicide is unpardonable. Maybe you are a different breed of Baptist than the ones I know. If memory serves me correctly, there are different types of Baptists, correct? One group, as I recall, are called "Feet Washing Baptists". And there are "Hard Shell Baptists", "Southern Baptists"....probably many more.

I meant no disrespect to any member of any Baptist congregation. The information about the KJV of the Bible was in response to your posts. You initially said that maybe my (Baptist) friends used a different Bible and I said not likely, since they are a bit rabid on the subject (that the KJV is somehow more "holy" than any other, in spite of its history). You, in turn, said I needed to explain my remarks, so I did.

Whew! I hope we have that all cleared up!

[Carlene 12]

What if you all fry 'em in Hell Baptists croak and then find out that Allah is the one true God?

Allah is our God, too. We just worship him differently. And, of course, we squabble over the fine points - like whether the Bible (and which Bible) or the Koran or the Torah is the proper, divinely inspired rule book, and which prophet/Messiah is the true messenger of God's word.

[Wheetsin 714]

The moral burden thrust upon the thoughtful atheist is, if anything, greater than that the believer has to bear. For those of you who believe in an afterlife the sight of people who are suffering is mitigated by the belief that they will eventually be rewarded somewhere down the road. For us unbelievers watching the pain that these unfortunates must suffer carries a different weight. We know that this is the only show in town. When you are dead, you are dead. You only achieve immortality through your genetic contribution. And maybe you can help out the miserable ones by being a decent, stand-up human being while you are still alive for you understand that this really is it.

Green, excellent point. My parents (I know I've already said this, but wouldn't assume everyone reads/remembers) are different religions - dad is baptist while mom is catholic. We have lots of very interesting conversations. They aren't thrilled with my "decision" to be an atheist, but they don't disapprove of it. They are comfortable that I have done what is right for me. They understand my reasoning.

I often tell them that I think chrisitanity (although this could apply much more broadly than christianity - but that's what we're normally talking about) is the easy way out, so to speak. For alot of reasons, one of the more minor being the afterlife. When someone dies, perhaps the pain is that much less potent because of a belief that you will be reunited, or that they're in a better place. Compared to a belief that the person has absolutely stopped existing and is irrevocably gone, and instead of being in another place, just isn't. I was in the room with my grandfather when he lost a terrible and ironic battle with cancer, and just maybe it would have stung a little less to walk over and close his eyes if I could have believed that he was anything but dead & gone.

** Edit - my father is methodist, not baptist. I don't know why I keep wanting to say baptist. Somehow it's Carlene's fault, I'm sure.

[~Pam~ 0]

How would you classify an atheist? Is an atheist a non-believer, and therefore unable to commit the sin, or is an atheist someone who intentionally denies the existence of god and is therefore blasphemous?

Oh boy, I'll be honest with you, I really, really don't want to answer this question. I’ve been trying to avoid it…but God's not letting me away with that. :phanvan

First of all, let me say that it is not up to any of us to judge your relationship (or lack of relationship) to God. Only God can judge you and determine your salvation. Therefore, I will only share the Word of God with you, through the Bible, and NOT give you my personal interpretation of the Scriptures. I hope you can understand and appreciate that.

Oh and I also realize that you, and several other members here, do not recognize the Bible as a “Holy” document. I completely understand that and am not trying to push my beliefs on you or anyone else. I am simply answering your question, based on what it says in the Bible

(*taking deep breaths because I don’t want to be flamed*)

In Matthew 12:30, it says:

"He who is not with me is against me..."

The footnotes in my study Bible say:

It's impossible to be neutral about Christ. Anyone who is not actively following him has chosen to reject him. Anyone who tries to remain neutral in the struggle of good against evil is choosing to be separated from God, who alone is good. To refuse to follow Christ is to choose to be on Satan's team.

In Matthew 12:31-32, it says:

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The footnotes in my Bible say:

The Pharisees had blasphemed against the Holy Spirit by attributing power by which Christ did miracles to Satan instead of the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is the deliberate refusal to acknowledge God's power in Christ. It indicates a deliberate and irreversible hardness of the heart. Sometimes believers worry that they have accidentally committed this unforgivable sin. But only those who have turned their backs on God and rejected all faith have any need to worry. Jesus said that they can't be forgiven--not because their sin is worse than any other, but because they will never ask for forgiveness. Whoever rejects the prompting of the Holy Spirit removes himself or herself from the only force that can lead him or her to repentance and restoration by God.

Matthew 10:33 says:

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

The footnotes say:

Oh wait...there is no footnote for this Scripture. I guess they figure it's self-explanatory.

John 14:6 says:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The footnotes say:

Jesus says he is the only way to get to God the Father. Some people may argue that this way is too narrow. In reality, it is wide enough for the whole world, if the world chooses to accept it. Instead of worrying about how limited it sounds to have only one way, we should be saying, "Thank you, God, for providing a sure way to get to you!"

Mark 3:29 says:

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

The footnotes say:

Essentially, this is speaking against Jesus (as in "Jesus is not the Son of God") or speaking against the Holy Spirit (as in "the Holy Spirit does not exist") is an unpardonable sin. It reveals a heart-attitude of unbelief and unrepentance. Deliberate, ongoing rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy because it rejects God Himself. The religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy, but ironically they were the guilty ones when the looked Jesus in the face and accused him of being possessed by Satan.

Please keep in mind that these are not MY words. They are simply the Scriptures from the Bible and the footnotes that go along with them in my study Bible (so please don't flame me...you did ask! :phanvan ). These are the Words of God, through the Holy Bible, and it's up to each individual person to either accept them or reject them.

[Carlene 12]

When someone dies, perhaps the pain is that much less potent because of a belief that you will be reunited, or that they're in a better place. Compared to a belief that the person has absolutely stopped existing and is irrevocably gone, and instead of being in another place, just isn't.

But if I'm right, I get to say I told you so, and you get to ask for ice Water. If you're right....nothing happens.

** Edit - my father is methodist, not baptist. I don't know why I keep wanting to say baptist. Somehow it's Carlene's fault, I'm sure.

No doubt....

[Carlene 12]

(*taking deep breaths because I don’t want to be flamed*)

Relax....Wheetsin won't be offended if you tell her she is going to hell. She doesn't believe in hell.

Edited to add...

The problem with Atheists is they are so damned reasonable. And generally very intelligent, too.

[~Pam~ 0]

Relax....Wheetsin won't be offended if you tell her she is going to hell. She doesn't believe in hell.

Edited to add...

The problem with Atheists is they are so damned reasonable. And generally very intelligent, too.

LOL. Good point! :biggrin1:

[Wheetsin 714]

so please don't flame me...you did ask! :phanvan

I've never once, ever, flamed anyone here. You certainly won't be the first, least of all for answering what I ask. I absolutely wouldn't ask a question unless I truly wanted to know someone's answer. It appears you EXPECT me to flame you, and I think that's unfair. You aren't judging me, are you?

I've heard -- in this thread as well as in life -- an awful lot of contradiction. Thus the glory of perception. But the proverbial down side is that everyone believes their interpretation/belief is the correct one.

I find it interesting. And I thank you for sharing not necessarily your opinions, but your information.

[anonemouse 1]

Yeah, I kind of get a kick out of people telling me that I am going to hell for being an atheist, since I consider doing that to be against the Christian ideal of "love thy neighbor." I think to myself, "If there is a hell, I'll meet you there."

I am an atheist, but I think that if I was completely wrong and there is a God, he would be compassionate instead of hard and grudge-bearing. I think that he would see into the hearts of people and judge them based on the type of person they currently are and the type of person they have been in the past. If that's the case, there are a lot of so-called Christians that wouldn't be going through the Pearly Gates. If you are a good person, you are good whether or not you believe in a higher power. I personally believe that child molesters, rapists, and murderers can't be reformed. If God is the sort of power that would allow them to reside in the same place as good, moral people, then I don't want to be in his heaven. Even if those rapists, murderers, and child molesters "repent" and believe in God, that doesn't change the fact that they are rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

[~Pam~ 0]

I've never once, ever, flamed anyone here. You certainly won't be the first, least of all for answering what I ask. I absolutely wouldn't ask a question unless I truly wanted to know someone's answer. It appears you EXPECT me to flame you, and I think that's unfair. You aren't judging me, are you?

I've heard -- in this thread as well as in life -- an awful lot of contradiction. Thus the glory of perception. But the proverbial down side is that everyone believes their interpretation/belief is the correct one.

I find it interesting. And I thank you for sharing not necessarily your opinions, but your information.

[/color]

Oh good! I was worried about offending you! And actually I was more worried about another member flaming me, since I've never actually seen you flame a single person. In fact, I enjoy your posts because even though we disagree, you always present yourself in such a clam, intellegent way. I find your perspective quite interesting actually. But it is scary to answer these questions for me though since I've been flamed so very badly in the past, and I never know who might take offense to my beliefs. Thank you for your understanding!

[Wheetsin 714]

Theological debates are difficult.

Side "A" is up against this unknown, unseen, unproven force capable of anything and everything who can have anything & everytyhing attributed to it, without "proof". because this unseen & unknown entity can be capable of anything and everything, "because it's god" becomes a sort of dismisser for any logical rebutes. That's very hard to argue against. It's like trying to argue against all the superheroes that were ever conveived of, wrapped up into one mega avenger:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Side "B" has the very core of their faith resting in just that, and as such can attribute what side "A" sees as plain and simple events to a higher power. Side "A" demands evidence, side "B" can't produce the type of evidence they're looking for, but insists the whole point is to believe in the absence of evidence. Which is the exact opposite of what 95% of the atheists out there can do.

While various Christian denominations may disagree about the details of what it takes to be saved, they agree that one essential requirement for salvation is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God. But if God wants us to believe in Him and in Jesus, why doesn't He give us enough evidence to know that He exists? The two answers to this dilemma that I've heard most often is that 1) there is indeed enough evidence for us to believe that God exists and 2) if God were to give us enough evidence to know that He exists, it would violate our free will to accept salvation. First, we should note that these two answers are contradictory! Either there is enough evidence or there is not! The first answer presumes there is enough evidence and the second presumes there is not.

The debate over whether there is enough evidence to believe in God is probably the most popular religious debate topic on the web. The fact that there is such a debate is itself an indication that there is not sufficient evidence that God exists. And while I too weigh in on this debate from time to time, I want to focus here on the second answer: that giving us enough evidence to believe would violate our free will.

The argument goes something like this: God requires us to accept Jesus as our savior in order for us to be saved. To accept Jesus, we must first believe in God and believe that Jesus is God's Son. But God can't force us to believe or it doesn't count -- we have to believe of our own free will. If God made it obvious that He exists and that Jesus is his Son, then everyone would be forced to believe and salvation would not be by our free will.

But this argument is inconsistent with other main-stream Christian beliefs. Christians believe that Lucifer (a.k.a Satan, a.k.a. the Devil) was one of God's archangels. Even the name, "Lucifer", means "Light Bearer". Satan lived in Heaven with God. Because he rebelled, he was cast out of Heaven. Satan knows Jesus, he knows God, and he knows that Jesus is the Son of God. He has first-hand evidence from his own personal experience while living in Heaven. Yet Satan is not saved! So it does not follow that having evidence that God exists and that Jesus is the Son of God forces anyone to be saved. Satan is damned through his own free will, dispite his first-hand knowledge of God and Jesus.

We just saw that having enough evidence to believe that God exists does not takes away our free will to accept salvation. Therefore, just like Satan and the minions of hell, people could also have enough evidence to believe that God exists and that Jesus is the Son of God, yet they would still have free will to reject the "gift of salvation". The explanation that "God does not give us enough evidence to believe that He exists in order to preserve our free will" does not make sense.

On the contrary, evidence that God exists is absolutely required in order for a person to accept or reject salvation by his own free will! If you don't believe in God because God doesn't give you sufficient evidence to believe, then you can't believe that the "gift of salvation" exists. And something that does not exist cannot be offered as a gift. You cannot accept or reject something that you do not believe really exists. If God has withheld evidence that He exists, then He prevents us from accepting salvation by our own free will.

For the most part, I dig other people's perceptions. Even I think they're stone cold wrong, they're still right to that person. (Insert additional thread here re: denial of absolute reality)

** editing to add: the above quotes are not my own writing, they are borrowed from askanatheist.org. Nor do they necessarily reflect my personal beliefs (because I would never give any credit to free will)

[Alexandra 55]

... you always present yourself in such a clam, intellegent way.

Wheetsin is nothing if not clam!