Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Carlene 12]

You think it was wrong to convict her? I mean for real She could have stopped after the first one. It takes along time to drown someone.. how can you look at your child with their eyes open stuggling and fighting for air. And then do it over and over again. The 7 yo put up a hell of a fight also. I mean he was trying to save himself. I dont care how depressed she was, she could have just killed herself.

This was a deiberate and sucessful attempt to kill just them. I think the second trial was a travesty.

She had choices, she choice to kill them.. but they had a name and a face and a personality. Very different then abortion. It was a child not a fetus..or unborn whatever you want to call it.

I think Andrea Yates is a seriously disturbed woman. I blame her husband for the tragedy, as much as her. And since he got off scott free, why should she spend the rest of her life in prison while he remarries and has more kids?

[sweethot143 2]

ok, perfect example Andrea murdered her children and wen to prison, but it's ok to murder you children if you haven't met them yet? ridiculous.

[gadgetlady 4]

50 years ago the chances of living were lower. This is what it comes down to...many of you WERE complaining about people that ACTAULLY want "too many kids" now you are complaining about people who DO NOT WANT kids?

My point about 50 years ago is that viability changes based on medical technology, and to say it's OK to kill an unborn baby at, say, 32 weeks 50 years ago when that baby would be considered viable at a much earlier time in 2006 is discriminating against a baby based on the year he is concieved.

And I never complained that people want too many kids or people who don't want kids. I think people should have as many kids as they want, and I don't have a problem with people who don't want any. I just have a problem with people who kill kids because they don't want any.

When it comes down to it, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are as to yours. I am not trying to change anyone's mind, as you should not be trying to change mine. it would be a waste of your time.

First, I believe it is entirely possible to change peoples' minds with fact and a good, solid addressing of the argument. I had my mind changed as an adult on the issue of the death penalty (it was involvement with the pro-life movement that changed my mind). There are many, many examples of people who used to be in favor of abortion but changed their minds as adults; e.g. Ronald Reagan, Henry Hyde, Bernard Nathanson, numerous clinic workers and abortionists, etc.

Second, while you are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to run roughshod over the rights of other people in the pursuance of your opinion.

If you don't like Beans, don't eat them

If you don't believe in Christianity, don't go to church

If you don't believe in tattoos, don't get one

If you don't believe in piercings, don't get one

If you don't believe in slavery, don't own a slave . . .

Wait, there's a problem there! Your belief in tattoos is your own and you can choose to remain uninked for your entire life without hurting another person. But your belief in slavery directly affects the rights of another human being. AS DOES ABORTION. And when the rights of another person are threatened, the government and other citizens have the right to intervene. Heck, the government intervenes in situations where people are choosing to do something with their body and yet someone's life is not directly in danger (e.g. prostitution)!

it is NOT MY PLACE to pass MY MORAL judgement on them and force them into a life they do not want to live.

I agree, again in cases when the rights and the physical life of another person are not threatened. But when you posit that one of your rights is to kill another human being, whether that human being be old, young, disabled, able-bodied, wanted, unwanted, or tattooed and pierced, you are just plain not within your rights.

Do neo-Nazi's have a right to march? Of course they do. Do they have a right to believe what they believe? Of course they do. Do they have a right to lynch? Yeah, that's where I draw the line.

Believe what you want. But don't kill other people in the furtherance of your beliefs.

[Carlene 12]

You think it was wrong to convict her? I mean for real She could have stopped after the first one. It takes along time to drown someone.. how can you look at your child with their eyes open stuggling and fighting for air. And then do it over and over again. The 7 yo put up a hell of a fight also. I mean he was trying to save himself. I dont care how depressed she was, she could have just killed herself.

This was a deiberate and sucessful attempt to kill just them. I think the second trial was a travesty.

Andrea Yates did not kill her children because she did not want to be burdened with them. She was mentally deranged - not merely "depressed". She truly believed that she was saving her children from the fires of hell by killing them while they were young and innocent.

I think Andrea had had so much ultra-conservative religious babble hard-wired into her brain over the years - the world is evil and we're all sinners and the devil awaits - that she just lost touch with any sense of reality. For a number of years, she and her family lived in an RV (not even a mobile home - a recreational vehicle) AND she home-schooled her kids. The poor woman had no life whatsoever, no time to herself, and she suffered from severe Post-partum Depression. Her doctors warned her husband before the last child was born that she could not handle another one. I still say he deserved to be charged too.

[Big girl banded 0]

Andrea Yates did not kill her children because she did not want to be burdened with them. She was mentally deranged - not merely "depressed". She truly believed that she was saving her children from the fires of hell by killing them while they were young and innocent.

I think Andrea had had so much ultra-conservative religious babble hard-wired into her brain over the years - the world is evil and we're all sinners and the devil awaits - that she just lost touch with any sense of reality. For a number of years, she and her family lived in an RV (not even a mobile home - a recreational vehicle) AND she home-schooled her kids. The poor woman had no life whatsoever, no time to herself, and she suffered from severe Post-partum Depression. Her doctors warned her husband before the last child was born that she could not handle another one. I still say he deserved to be charged too.

ok i read the last response too. I AGREE with you about the husband being a major part in what happened. He was very "Korresh" if you ask me ( I am not trying to open that pandoras box)

I think he was responsible for spousal abuse and maybe many more charges. She is the one that took it upon herself to hold them down in the Water. That is why i think that it puts her in another category of cruel and unusual. But you bring up very good and correct inforamation about the stuff that was going on to HER.

[Big girl banded 0]

ok, perfect example Andrea murdered her children and wen to prison, but it's ok to murder you children if you haven't met them yet? ridiculous.

And NO andrea went to prison for a little bit then was released... after Drowning her children... Alittle different then an abortion that takes 30 minutes ( i am not talking about late term) or holding each of your children while they squirm in the Water for 10 each... and for VERY different reasons.

[gadgetlady 4]

About 6 months ago I was at church and noticed a young girl, pregnant, at the foot of a cross (our church has crosses around the room where people can take communion and pray), in tears. I went over to her to give her some comfort for whatever she was going through, prayed with her, and spent about 1/2 hour talking to her. She was out of work, pregnant from a guy she had met on a trip while she was in Chicago (he had no interest in having anything to do with her or the baby), and in just an awful situation. I offered her comfort, assistance in anything that she needed (a job, baby items, etc.), and just basically sat with her and listened. She didn't ask for anything but knew how to get a hold of me if she had a need.

Fast forward to today. I've been looking for her at church but haven't seen her since our first meeting. My husband left the service to use the bathroom, and when he came back he told me she was out in the hallway with a beautiful baby girl. I went out to see her and she was absolutely glowing. She was transformed, so full of joy that she was literally shining. Her darling baby girl was 10 weeks old and beautiful. The mom was doing so well it astounded me. The father of the baby still wants nothing to do with either of them, but that didn't dampen her joy.

After we chatted for a while and I renewed my offer to help -- this time with babysitting or anything she needed -- I started to think about what could have happened to that baby just 10 weeks and one day ago. She could have been brutally ripped from her mother's womb and dismembered. It reminded me of this discussion, that most people don't realize that abortion is legal through all nine months of pregnancy, and that even early abortions are a destructive force in the life of the mother and most certainly in the life of the baby that is killed. With life there is hope, and what is an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy often develops into a beautiful baby who is very much wanted.

[dotofoz 0]

Personally, my husband and I have incredible sex, as often as possible. And when I don't want to get pregnant, we use birth control. But if I did accidentally get pregnant, I wouldn't knock off the baby.

I have no interest in being in your bed or your body.

When a mother is pregnant, however, the baby is not her body. It's the baby's body.

Correct, but w/o the mother's body, there would be no baby!

[Wheetsin 714]

Why do people who support abortion bristle when the term "unborn baby" is used? Because they are trying to deny the humanity of the object that's growing in the womb

That's one theory. Another is that, as they would define "baby", qualifications aren't yet met. I support abortion, and it doesn't make me bristle.

[dotofoz 0]

NOT that this will settle anything....yet there is a reality many have not been exposed to regarding those facing the issue of unwanted pregnancy.....

Among the various individuals I worked with, ages ranged from 14 to 48; from class valedictorian to one unable to tie her own shoes; from 'healthy' to 'bearly able to walk'; from a family of wealth and means to those without any resources financial, emotional OR religious; cases involving statutory rape, a few incest, a scattering of criminal assault....

Whatever the religious, philosophical or political position of those onlookers, I don't recall many of these women who made their decision easily. And I don't recall any of those 'ADC' families ever admitting (to me at least) that the few extra $$ was what made them seek additional parenting opportunities.

In a way, such pregnancies are similar to those of us Morbidly Obese....everyone else has an opinion and a solution to OUR problem and seeks to soothe themselves by imposing THEIR answer on OUR lives...

There is a line various religious factions never seem able to accept, which is that people who do NOT hold that belief (whichever faction) does not feel bound to behavior or choices guided by that voice...no matter how much sense it makes.

Some of the most difficult situations were of those women who HAD been raised in the folds of a religious community, who could not find a way to resolve the conflict between the abortion/adoption choices.

At its best, the various religious groups did what they could to support such women.

I witnessed some really heart breaking situations which were worsend by the well-intended imposition of the 'helper' belief on the 'helpee'.

Whichever choice the birth mother makes, society at large becomes the defacto absent parent provider. Sometimes that works well, sometimes not. Just like 'real' family life.

You go girl! I've got people telling me surgery is the 'easy way out'. Kinda funny that these same folks have NO idea the hell I've been thru with my weight and they're all skinny folks that think they know everything! ONCE AGAIN, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A PERSON'S LIFE IS LIKE TIL YOU WALK IN THEIR SHOES! I have NO idea why people can't keep their noses out of other adult's business and their medical issues, be it unwanted pregnancy or WLS. I think we ALL can relate to the WLS issue, that's why we're her, no? :deadhorse:

[dotofoz 0]

You think it was wrong to convict her? I mean for real She could have stopped after the first one. It takes along time to drown someone.. how can you look at your child with their eyes open stuggling and fighting for air. And then do it over and over again. The 7 yo put up a hell of a fight also. I mean he was trying to save himself. I dont care how depressed she was, she could have just killed herself.

This was a deiberate and sucessful attempt to kill just them. I think the second trial was a travesty.

She had choices, she choice to kill them.. but they had a name and a face and a personality. Very different then abortion. It was a child not a fetus..or unborn whatever you want to call it.

I hope she burns in hell for torturing those kids! I heard it was because she a man on the side that didn't want kids. PLease, NO MAN IS worth that!

[Alexandra 55]

...even early abortions are a destructive force in the life of the mother and most certainly in the life of the baby that is killed. With life there is hope, and what is an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy often develops into a beautiful baby who is very much wanted.

This is your POV. Early abortions can be every bit as much about restoring hope in the life of the woman who has absolutely no intention, desire, or ability to be a mother and for whom an unintended pregnancy has derailed her entire life.

Yes, the right kind of support can open possibilities that pregnant women might not have known were there. And this includes letting 14-year-old girls know there is a surgical way to undo the inadvertent pregnancy BEFORE too much time has passed.

Gadgetlady, I'll agree with you that late-term abortions of healthy babies in normal circumstances should be turned into early births of babies to be given up for adoption. I'd be all for a social (NOT religious) movement to promote adoption. I'd welcome the PR campaign to let women know where to take their unwanted newborns.

But passing sweeping "pro-life" laws does not accomplish that. Laws like that remove rights from women who find themselves in circumstances where THEIR lives are at stake and who have hard enough decisions to make. When it comes to my body, I'll thank the government to keep its nose out of it.

[Boo Boo Kitty 3]

Believe what you want. But don't kill other people in the furtherance of your beliefs.

If you would listen to a damn thing that I have said you will understand that I believe abortion is not right for ME. But it is NOT my point to tell someone else what to with their life. Even carrying a baby to term for adoption takes a great deal of love and commmittment.

Why should a woman that DOES NOT want a child who probly will not take care of herself, therefore affecting the fetus carry a baby to term? So there can be more children with FAS or Crack addicted or low birth to smoking or whatever? SO that everyone can feel good when they go to sleep?

A "unborn child" can not survive on its own without the mother taking care of herself and the unborn. If she is NOT willing to do that correctly why should there be another baby in the world with extreme health problems? Who takes care of the crack babies that cry constantly because they are going through withdrawls? Where do the children that no one wants to take care of end up in this world? DO you take care of them? No one really does, they sit in foster homes, adoption agencies ect. waiting for a better life. And for all too many it never comes.

Let's be honest, this is not a black or white issue. There are many things to look at. If you are just looking at one side you miss out.

[Carlene 12]

I heard it was because she a man on the side that didn't want kids. PLease, NO MAN IS worth that!

Are you sure you don't have Andrea Yates confused with Susan Smith, the woman who drowned her two little boys because her boyfriend didn't want an "instant family"? I have never heard one scandalous word about Andrea Yates' behavior pre-tragedy. By all accounts, she was a totally submissive wife who totally devoted herself to raising her children, pleasing her husband, and worshiping God as part of an ultra-conservative religious group.

Andrea Yates was overcome with genuine fear for the souls of her children and truly believed that if they were allowed to live - to grow up and become "worldly" - they would eventually burn in hell. She thought she was saving their immortal souls by killing them.

It makes no sense to assume that she did it "for a man". There was no plot to kill off the kids and live happily eve rafter with a new love because she made no attempt to hide her crime.

[Carlene 12]

A "unborn child" can not survive on its own without the mother taking care of herself and the unborn.

That is simply not true. If it were, the human race would have perished long ago. Children are born every day in Africa, India, etc to AIDS infected, malnourished mothers who have received no prenatal care whatsoever.

I watched a documentary last night about a pair of co-joined twins. They actually look like a girl with two heads, as they have two arms, two legs, one body - but two heads. Internally, they have separate hearts and stomachs but share a colon and reproductive organs. They are 16 years old and absolutely AMAZING.

My point is that "handicapped" is a subjective term. Sometimes it's the people on the outside looking in who are handicapped.