Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[green 6]

I recently read that one child's food intake over one year more than equals the lifetime footprint of a SUV but I do believe that this issue is complicated by a number of other factors.

One of these is that of the rights of woman over her uterus, that is to say a woman's right to choose. We cannot have it both ways; we cannot claim the right to opt out of having children and then demand that other women be denied the right to have children.

Another one of these factors is this: once the educational and economic status of societies is raised couples tend to opt out of having lots of children. The population replacement birthrate - we are not talking a growth birthrate - is now of grave concern in all western European countries as well as in Canada. The United States happens to be the only affluent industrialized country which is still maintaining a replacement birthrate. That is to say, you understand, that your birth rate equals your death rate.

In Canada we deal with our declining population by actively recruiting new Canadians from other parts of the world. We have gone multinational and we are very immigrant friendly. This is easy for us for we are a very, very young country and our roots and traditions are shallow and few.

Europe is in the way of anticipating a crisis, however. The countries which make up Europe are old countries with deep roots and a profound sense of what makes up countrymen. A declining population cannot easily be supplemented by importing a bunch of foreigners. And yet for a country to remain economically and culturally vibrant there must be more than a collection of senior citizens living within its borders.

All of the above is a longish way of saying that if some women want to mother a gang of kids and they have the emotional and financial resources, well, what's the big deal? There is room here for them.

The concern that I have with the official Quiverful policy on families is that it seems to be embedded in narrow racist and political values, not just in a simple desire to have an old-fashioned big family.

[Sunta 5]

We cannot have it both ways; we cannot claim the right to opt out of having children and then demand that other women be denied the right to have children.

Just to clarify my position; I do not deny anyone the right to have children, nor would I advocate for that.

I only wish (not demand) that people would become educated about the environment before making childbearing decisions.

It's just a wish for more in-depth education, that's all. Nothing else.

As I said if someone truly knows the impact of having many children and they choose to have many anyway, that is their right and their choice.

It's a wish that more people would gain more knowledge, not a wish to take away anyone's rights.

[green 6]

We cannot have it both ways; we cannot claim the right to opt out of having children and then demand that other women be denied the right to have children.

Just to clarify my position; I do not deny anyone the right to have children, nor would I advocate for that.

I only wish (not demand) that people would become educated about the environment before making childbearing decisions.

It's just a wish for more in-depth education, that's all. Nothing else.

As I said if someone truly knows the impact of having many children and they choose to have many anyway, that is their right and their choice.

It's a wish that more people would gain more knowledge, not a wish to take away anyone's rights.

I know that you know that. I have a lot of respect for you. I was elaborating on my thoughts for others who might be reading this thread. And I might have been working out my ideas for my ownself, too. You know,...thinking out loud.

[Fluffy 0]

...thinking out loud.

How dare you! *laughing*

[Fluffy 0]

It's a wish that more people would gain more knowledge, not a wish to take away anyone's rights.

You wish for people to make informed, educated decisions, to be thoughtful about everything they do in life, not just walk through it all blindly. I think that's definitely a good thing to wish for people.

[anonemouse 1]

I said this in another thread, but I'll say it again here. I find it ironic that many of the people that are supporters of limiting a woman's right to choose an abortion yell about their reproductive rights when someone talks about limiting the number of kids that they can have. They talk about not wanting another person to make a reproductive decision for them, yet many want to make the same reproductive decisions for other women. To me, you can't have it both ways. Either you believe in a woman's right to choose her own reproductive behavior, or you don't.

[lizrbit 0]

woah, laurend, i never posted on that site. I never would either. I feel very strongly on the subject. Stop finger pointing.

I wish, that people who do not have children, either by choice or by circumstance, would shut up about how people raising thier children are doing it, or not doing it. its not their business.

thats what i wish.

[anonemouse 1]

woah, laurend, i never posted on that site. I never would either. I feel very strongly on the subject. Stop finger pointing.

How the heck did you somehow imagine that I was talking about you? I'm not fingerpointing. I wasn't talking about anyone here in particular. In fact, I tried to edit my post to say that it was just an observation, but couldn't.

I wish, that people who do not have children, either by choice or by circumstance, would shut up about how people raising thier children are doing it, or not doing it. its not their business.

How the people around me raise their kids does affect me. Are they little barbarians or little angels? Do they think it's okay to torture animals? Do they think it's okay to throw an all-out temper tantrum in the middle of a movie theater? Do they think it's okay to spit or hit other kids? You get the picture. And I doubt that the courts would think it's okay if I ignored my neighbor beating his kids because, hey, it's not my business.

[lizrbit 0]

but it isnt your business.

If it is, get into social work, family law, or gynocology, otherwise you SHOULD probably get your nose out of other peoples homes, and out of other womens wombs.

[anonemouse 1]

but it isnt your business.

If it is, get into social work, family law, or gynocology, otherwise you SHOULD probably get your nose out of other peoples homes, and out of other womens wombs.

Yeah. Next time you see a person beating their kids, you can look at them and say, "Sorry, kid. I'm not going to turn your sexually abusive dad into the police because this isn't any of my business." Try living with yourself then. I'm not that cavalier. I'm not going to ignore someone getting hurt because you think it's "none of my business".

[anonemouse 1]

I ran across a posting on a blog community that I thought really illustrates my point. Here it is (from http://community.livejournal.com/customers_suck/):

Picture this: two small children are climbing on the very narrow window ledge, having tons of fun balancing and wobbling back and forth. Now what do you imagine one would do in this situation? A) ask them nicely to get down, or ignore them. Well, I chose option A and the mother chose option B.

Me: Hey, can you guys get down from there please? I just don't want you getting hurt.

Kids: *looks guilty, gets down*

Mother: *at cash beside mine* Omg, I haaaate it when other people tell my kids what to do!

Me: *eye roll*

Lady, if you looked after your kids properly, other people wouldn't have to tell them what to do. And anyways, I don't want to be mopping kid-goo off the floor when they fall.

[Wheetsin 714]

Perhaps the difference is in how the technical disciplining occurs, versus the outcome of the disciplining. If people opt to spank their children, I think it's unfortunate, but it's not my business. If people choose to ground, not my business. When the child's behavior effects me - the technical how still isn't my business, but the child's behavior (directly related to the discipline they receive) is.

If I see a parent hitting (or "patting" or "slapping" or whatever word you want to use) their child on the butt cheek, although I personally wouldn't do it, I don't say anything. If I saw an adult punching their child, I would (and have) said something. To me, if you're doing something in the public eye, it's no longer "not your business."

[Wheetsin 714]

I wish, that people who do not have children, either by choice or by circumstance, would shut up about how people raising thier children are doing it, or not doing it. its not their business.

I was at a Target store about a year ago, and a mother was there with her two children. The mother had a variety of kitchen things in her cart - mixing bowls, measuring cups, metal stirring spoons, etc. We were in the checkout lane, I was behind her, and her kids kept asking for the candy that stores oh so brilliantly place there. I should rephrase that. The daughter picked up the candy, brought it to the mother, and the mother snatched it from her hands and (literally) tossed it on the floor before her daughter could say anything. The daughter picked it up, brought it over, and then asked if she could have it. The mother replied, "No, you'll get fat and then we won't be able to love you anymore." She then told the brother to call the sister a "pig", so he started calling her "piggie piggie" and making oinking noises at her. All of this happened in about what, 5 seconds? 10? I don't know. Anyway, the girl started to cry, so the mother grabbed her by the arm, shook her, and yelled at her to stop crying. Surprise, she didn't. The mother walked around to begin unloading her items. Then, after about 10 seconds of the crying, rather suddenly, the mother took the metal spoon she had just unloaded and struck her daughter across the head with it. I'm seeing this from behind, so I don't know exactly where she was struck, but I know I said :censored:, and a split second later the little girl turned to look at me and already had blood running from her forehead and dripping on her shirt.

Would you still say that what happened was none of my business? Or that I should have just shut-up and said nothing?

Because the police felt quite differently, as did the store manager, and the girl's father who showed up later.

[anonemouse 1]

Perhaps the difference is in how the technical disciplining occurs, versus the outcome of the disciplining. If people opt to spank their children, I think it's unfortunate, but it's not my business. If people choose to ground, not my business. When the child's behavior effects me - the technical how still isn't my business, but the child's behavior (directly related to the discipline they receive) is.

If I see a parent hitting (or "patting" or "slapping" or whatever word you want to use) their child on the butt cheek, although I personally wouldn't do it, I don't say anything. If I saw an adult punching their child, I would (and have) said something. To me, if you're doing something in the public eye, it's no longer "not your business."

Exactly. I think there is a clear difference between "discipline" and "beating". If someone is hitting their three year-old hard enough to leave marks, I'm damn well going to call the police. If people want their business to stay their business, they leave it at home.

[ALWYZWIKD 0]

I Cant Beleive Im Hearing This All You Were Born, I Wonder If Someone Said Something To Your Parents. I Do Believe That If You Can Take Care Of Them So Be It. I Have 5 And Take Care Of Them All They Are All Earth Friendly, We Do Our Part To Keep Our Environment Healthy,we Also Live In A Place Were No One Can Build No Longer And The Land Is Protected.we Did Just Build Another Elementary School But I Think Of It As Children Getting A Chance In Life.who Are We To Say What The Population Should Be Like Someone Said Its Not The People It Is Our Lifestyles And How We Use Things