Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Carlene 12]

No, I guess I worded it badly. I meant this: Joe is a Christian. Sam says Joe isn't a good Christian, but Joe believes he is.

One other thought I had (and this isn't pointed at you, Carlene, just a thought I had about what some other people have said here and in the past): If good Christians and mediocre Christians both go to heaven, what's the incentive to be a good Christian? Many people say, "You should be a good Christian just to help others or for the sake of doing a good thing." What makes these people different from the atheists? I have heard a lot of people say that being a Christian = being a good person, and that morality goes out the window if you don't believe in God. If a Christian should be a good Christian just for the sake of it, what prevents an atheist from being a good, moral person just for the sake of it?

Morality and Christianity are not synonymous. An Atheist can absolutely be a moral person. Morality means doing the right thing. You can, of course, do the right thing, or the charitable thing, without being a Christian. Lots of good people aren't Christians. On the other hand, Christians don't always do the right thing, and real Christians know that better than anyone.

The incentive to be a good Christian is hard to explain. The closest I can get is that nothing makes you feel as good about yourself as doing a kindness for someone else. There was a little story in our local paper at Christmas about a doctor who was shocked a few years ago to learn that two of his patients were homeless children, living in a cardboard box. It was Christmas time, so he bought a few toys and set out on icy streets to find the girls. They were more overjoyed than any two children he had ever seen. When he got home, the food from Christmas dinner was all gone, his own children had scattered to play with their new toys and the company had left for home. His wife offered to fix him a sandwich and told him how sorry she was that his Christmas had been spoiled. "Spoiled?", he said, "I've just had the best Christmas of my whole life."

The doctor has been playing Santa every year since then to children who live on the streets - not out of sympathy, but because it makes HIM so happy. Like virtue, the emulation of Christ is its own reward.

[gadgetlady 4]

One other thought I had (and this isn't pointed at you, Carlene, just a thought I had about what some other people have said here and in the past): If good Christians and mediocre Christians both go to heaven, what's the incentive to be a good Christian? Many people say, "You should be a good Christian just to help others or for the sake of doing a good thing." What makes these people different from the atheists? I have heard a lot of people say that being a Christian = being a good person, and that morality goes out the window if you don't believe in God. If a Christian should be a good Christian just for the sake of it, what prevents an atheist from being a good, moral person just for the sake of it?

I think this gets back to the issue of faith vs. faith + works. I believe that we act on our faith out of our love for God. We don't do so to "earn" a ticket to heaven. We've been given that ticket by Jesus' work on the cross. None of us will ever achieve or even come close to being Christ. God knows our hearts, and if we truly love Him we will act on that love and perform good works not because we want to be rewarded, but out of knowing it's the right thing to do.

[Carlene 12]

I think this gets back to the issue of faith vs. faith + works. I believe that we act on our faith out of our love for God. We don't do so to "earn" a ticket to heaven. We've been given that ticket by Jesus' work on the cross. None of us will ever achieve or even come close to being Christ. God knows our hearts, and if we truly love Him we will act on that love and perform good works not because we want to be rewarded, but out of knowing it's the right thing to do.

But Atheists often do good works too, and it's not out of love for God. It's because they are kind, compassionate, people. Sometimes you're a beacon, even though you don't believe in the power of light.

[green 6]

It is ironic that the Muslims hate the Jews so intensely for Islam and Judaism are closely yoked and of course both Arabs and Jews are both Semitic peoples. Christianity was a religion that drifted away from the exigencies of the desert but both Judaism and Islam are desert religions. Both these religions have a much stronger sense of the responsibility of the host towards those who are in need. Hospitality and help towards travellers and others who are in need are one of the formal demands of both of these religions. This makes sense when you consider that these folk are living in an unkind part of the world. To deny someone help means that you are consigning them to death. The desert is unforgiving, you know. I've travelled through the Sahara in a carvan of specially outfitted cars. Even then we all remained in communication with each other.

When I was a young student and hanging out in Morocco with a couple of other European students we were befriended by a young Moroccan who put us up in his crib. He slept on the floor. He didn't want anything from us even though we assumed that he did. The next day he took us over to meet his mum who lived in the old part of the city. She lived in one room which opened out onto a courtyard. There was a communal kitchen. She fed us tea and cakes.

Over the years since then I have come to know many Muslims. Some of my family are Jews and though I have been raised more or less atheist I have done some reading and some observing. The practice of good works is formally enshrined in both Judaism and Islam. Indeed, one of the requirements to be a good Jew or to be a good Muslim is to practice kindness and show good works towards others: this is demanded by the religion. Such behaviour is always righteous but for those who live in the harsh conditions of the desert a slip from this will cause death.

And of course you will remember that both Jews and Muslims follow certain dietary laws that Christians have taken a pass on.

[anonemouse 1]

But Atheists often do good works too, and it's not out of love for God. It's because they are kind, compassionate, people.

You know that and I know that. Unfortunately, a lot of other people apparently don't. One of the major arguments I have heard whenever I have discussed Christianity versus Atheism is that whenever God is taken out of the equation, morality disappears. Most other atheists will probably say the same. It's one of those things that really gets under my skin.

[gadgetlady 4]

But Atheists often do good works too, and it's not out of love for God. It's because they are kind, compassionate, people. Sometimes you're a beacon, even though you don't believe in the power of light.

I never said you could only do good works if you did it out of love for God. I just said that the reason I believe only faith is required for salvation (in other words, the doctrine of salvation by grace) is because we can never "do" enough good works to be righteous in God's eyes. The only thing that makes us righteous is being covered by Jesus' blood.

That being said, I believe all human beings have the capacity for both good and evil, and certainly good works are not the purvue of any one religion, culture, or group. I think there are many areas where what is "good" is pretty self-evident.

[dotofoz 0]

GEEZ.....I'm gone for a bit and this turns into a PSR class!

[dotofoz 0]

I saw the movie when it first came out, but I don't recall the abortion perspective being unique. Can you enlighten us, please?

Well, maybe unique isn't the word, but ironic...The Toby McGuire character seems to be anti abortion in the beginning and doesn't really want to know how to do them. The girl they find almost dead outside that was bleeding from a botched abortion is examined by the Dr. and he tells Toby how horrible it is that this happened to her. Toby looks at what happened to her after the Dr. basically makes him look how she was ripped up and Toby runs out of the room. Needless to say, the next scene they show Toby and others digging her grave, the Dr. couldn't save her...I forgot what happens on the 2nd one (the girlfriend of the army guy has one, Charleze Theron), but when he finds out that the teen girl at the apple field is pregnant by her FATHER, he OFFERS to give her one and makes her dad help by holding the ether mask. Well the dad freaks out and I'm assuming realizes how he really messed up by having sex w/his own daughter! What's also interresting is that the beginning takes place in an old time home for unwanted kids & unwed moms in the early 40's...As understandable, the unwed mom's have a hell of a time giving up their babies, but those are the ones that get adopted. It's the older kids and troubled kids that are left!

[Carlene 12]

Well, maybe unique isn't the word, but ironic...The Toby McGuire character seems to be anti abortion in the beginning and doesn't really want to know how to do them.

I thought he was just uncomfortable with the idea of performing surgery, since he wasn't a doctor. Lord knows, I would be!

[gadgetlady 4]

Last night I was watching an episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent. In one scene, there was a Muslim man who called his family-arranged fiancée a “whore” (she was pregnant from her American boyfriend and had no intention of following her family’s wishes and agreeing to an arranged marriage). Then this “devout” Muslim man produces a “restaurant” receipt as an alibi for the time of the crime in question. The detective notices that the receipt is for a strip club.

I was thinking about that scene later that evening. As a non-Muslim, my sentiments while watching it were, quite simply, “hypocrite.” But I thought later about how often I see Christians represented as hypocrites and how much it offends me when that happens. I realized that when you are a member of a group and a negative portrayal of your group is presented, you are outraged. But when you’re not a member of that group and there’s a negative portrayal, you are less likely to be outraged and more likely to “file” the portrayal in your mental rolodex. Because you generally have no standard by which to gauge the portrayal (i.e. “I’m a Muslim and I don’t know anyone who frequents strip clubs”), that mental picture becomes part of the information by which you assess the entire group.

When you’re not a member of a group, disenfranchised, downtrodden, discriminated against, whatever, the media play a huge part in informing your opinion of that group. When conservatives claim there is a liberal bias in the news, the liberals laugh – not because there isn’t one, but precisely because they just don’t see it! And when Christians balk at the anti-Christian bias in television and movies (or on this board!), non-Christians really, really, just don’t see it. To non-Christians, when presented with a portrayal of pedophile priests, hypocritical preachers, and Christians who care about nothing but their own comfort and controlling others, they test it against their mental rolodex and determine it to be consistent with what they know – which is mostly made up of information from media, television, and movies - and of course it’s consistent.

Every year, our church takes a weekend and does something called Serve Day (www.serveday.org). This is a partnership of 25-30 churches, each asking every member of their congregation to take off from services that weekend within the church, and instead go out and serve the community. So thousands of people from all over the Los Angeles/Orange County area go out and work in Soup kitchens, feed and clothe the homeless, visit nursing homes, rake the yards of their neighbors, wash cars for free, etc. (some of the serving opportunities are geared towards being more kid-friendly because of the families in the church). The goal, among other things, is not only to serve on that one weekend, but to inspire people to continue their service throughout the year. Is there ever anything in the news about it? Of course not! The news feeds on the negative, not the positive. “If it bleeds, it leads.” And the mental picture non-Christians have of Christians remains the one built by the files deposited into their brains from the negative news stories, tv shows, and movies.

I am not by any means saying that there are not Muslims, Christians, and those from all other groups that are hypocrites. There certainly are. But what I am saying is our opinions of everyone, from groups of people to political personalities, is very much informed by the bias of those who present it to us. And believe me, everyone has a bias (including me).

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Regarding liberal bias in the media: The word liberal is so misused as to be meaningless in this context. Bill and Hilary Clinton are constantly referred to as Liberals. I am a Liberal. They are not Liberal. CNN is not Liberal. Recently I watched a documentary on Barry Goldwater. Barry Goldwater was the father of the American Conservative movement, but he would be classified as a Liberal in today's way of thinking.

FOX News and Clear Channel Radio and the Murdoch Print Media Empire (including the NY Post) are so far to the right as to level the bar even if the rest of the media was Liberal biased.

I know I am a Liberal, but many conservatives that I know think they are middle of the road. Only the ultra-Conservatives think they are Conservative.

[skyeblu79 0]

But I thought later about how often I see Christians represented as hypocrites and how much it offends me when that happens. I realized that when you are a member of a group and a negative portrayal of your group is presented, you are outraged. But when you’re not a member of that group and there’s a negative portrayal, you are less likely to be outraged and more likely to “file” the portrayal in your mental rolodex. Because you generally have no standard by which to gauge the portrayal (i.e. “I’m a Muslim and I don’t know anyone who frequents strip clubs”), that mental picture becomes part of the information by which you assess the entire group.

When you’re not a member of a group, disenfranchised, downtrodden, discriminated against, whatever, the media play a huge part in informing your opinion of that group.

More than anything it used to hurt my feelings. Probably, b/c I think I used to take it all personally. You think hey I am part of this group, what are they saying/thinking about me. Then I realized some people are really ignorant (truly dumb). I have been stereotyped throughout my whole life for one reason or another. I try not to inflict that crap on other people. Some people are ignorant and want to remain ignorant. It took me a long time, but I realize that's how it is.

I think the media does play a big role, but you have to be smart enough not to buy in on everything you see on tv. It's too bad everyone isn't smart enough to realize that. I have stopped watching a lot of tv shows b/c of that. A lot of the stuff that's on our local news is crap I think put out there to sway people certain ways. To live in certain areas, etc. It's amazing how much stuff that I know that never even hits the news.

[Carlene 12]

Every year, our church takes a weekend and does something called Serve Day (www.serveday.org). This is a partnership of 25-30 churches, each asking every member of their congregation to take off from services that weekend within the church, and instead go out and serve the community. So thousands of people from all over the Los Angeles/Orange County area go out and work in Soup kitchens, feed and clothe the homeless, visit nursing homes, rake the yards of their neighbors, wash cars for free, etc. (some of the serving opportunities are geared towards being more kid-friendly because of the families in the church).

That is a very, very important part of Christianity. Not just doing "good works", but being a living symbol of your faith. Yours may be the only face of Christ those people ever see.

[anonemouse 1]

To non-Christians, when presented with a portrayal of pedophile priests, hypocritical preachers, and Christians who care about nothing but their own comfort and controlling others, they test it against their mental rolodex and determine it to be consistent with what they know – which is mostly made up of information from media, television, and movies - and of course it’s consistent.

Not necessarily. Think of it this way: Most citizens in this country are Christians. That's a fact. Many Americans may not be able to say that they personally know a Muslim or a Jew, but they can say they know a Christian. For me, I believe most of the news' portrayal of Christians because it is what I personally see almost every day. I know many Christians are good people (although, I don't see most "missionary work" as being something to be proud of), but I still see Christians every day that are mean, bigoted, and disgraceful human beings.

[anonemouse 1]

This is a big part of what really bothers me about some Christians (including some in my own family):

My uncle and aunt help run a homeless shelter in Nashville, TN. They are Southern Baptists (which, I will admit, is a denomination that I have very little respect for). In order for someone to get help at their shelter, they must agree to attend Bible classes and services. I personally think that is disgraceful. Instead of helping someone for the knowledge that you helped another human being, they are putting demands on their help. They are basically saying, "In order to receive our assistance, you must be a Christian or be willing to be converted." A truly Christian person or denomination would help someone. Period. They wouldn't demand something in return. If you are going to feed someone, feed them. If you are going to give someone shelter, give them shelter. Provide services and Bible study that they can go to if they wish it, but don't require someone to potentially give up part of themself just to receive assistance.