Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Wheetsin 714]

But if you have a desire in your heart for God, as expressed through concern that you have committed some sort of unpardonable sin, you do not have a hardened heart. Your concern confirms your innocence.

I've had this conversation I can't count how many times, even just in the past few years, that some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication occurs. Being curious about people's faith doesn't mean you're concerned about it. I don't think that asking, "In your faith have I comitted an unpardonable sin?" is at all the same thing as asking, "Am I forgiven in your faith?" or as stating, "I"m curious about the state of my grace with god." It's just asking an opinion, and opinions are exchanged all the time without any deeper meaning.

I ask people what their faith dictates all of the time. Just like I ask my husband all the time about laws or beliefs in his home country. I ask my peers what they thought about Happy Feet, but it doesn't mean I believe there are penguins who sing with a Cuban accent. I just want to know what they think.

I've had people tell me that in order to deny the existence of god, you are acknowledging god exists, because you can't deny something that isn't knowable. I deny the existence of a little purple man who runs out and turns on the fridge light every time I open the door, but that certainly doesn't mean he exists.

[Carlene 12]

There is only one unpardonable sin and that is REJECTING Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

You forgot to include a reference to the Scripture which supports your statement. Matthew and Luke both define the unpardonable sin as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and specifically say that blasphemy against the Son of Man (Jesus) is pardonable.

Billy Graham is NOT a Biblical source, much as I hate to be the one to tell you.

[skyeblu79 0]

I know a lot of Baptists, and I've never heard of this. All my Baptists friends agree with my church on this one....that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 says, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Luke 12:10 says, "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

I will have to look it up when I get home, but this is what I have always been taught. And I just asked 3 of my coworkers who said the same thing. I don't know...Maybe your Baptist friends are reading a different Bible. I'll post whatever the information tonight.

[Wheetsin 714]

it is deliberately resisting the Holy Spirit's witness and invitation to turn to Jesus until death ends all opportunity.

But in order to resist, you have to have some type of "pull" or beckoning. Or there is nothing to resist, there is just indifference.

So by that definition, if an atheist has never felt a "pull" to faith, then they aren't resisting anything. They just "are". Only the ones who once had faith would have then resisted or denied that faith.

And I use atheism, but you could use any other faith or any other state of missing or undefined faith.

[GeezerSue 7]

Wheetsin,

Back in the dark ages, when I attended Catholic school, the "party line" was that anyone who had been exposed to the truth (as defined by the Catholic Church) and rejected it would suffer eternal damnation and all, whereas the few remaining people on the planet who had NOT heard the truth (in those days, we spoke of the people in the Soviet Union who were not allowed access and as-yet-undiscovered jungle people) would not be considered sinners.

But that was the olden times.

[Carlene 12]

Maybe your Baptist friends are reading a different Bible.

Like that's going to happen! My Baptist friends are good people, don't get me wrong, but even the smartest among them are blind to historical fact, which tells us that the King James Bible is NOT the "original", nor is it a complete, unaltered guide to redemption.

[~Pam~ 0]

Being able to be the objective third party in this, here's what I perceive:

*assuming character* It's forgiveable to murder each other, commit heinous acts and atrocities, give in to your every temptation, destroy life, brutalize nature, hate, loathe, and any other "evil" you can think of, but it's not OK to deny my existence. Do the worst thing you can imagine to another man, but if you so much as think I doesn't exist, you're screwed.

There's something inherently and ultimately hypociritical in that. IMO.

Actually no, that's not accurate. It's true that ANYONE can be forgiven of their sins, no matter what they have done in the past *IF* they are TRULY repentant and turn their life around. Once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we cannot purposely go around committing sin (God still forgives occasional slip ups of course, since we are not perfect). But if a murderer was TRULY repentant and felt tremendous remorse and changed his life around completely (and TRULY meant it in his heart), then he would be forgiven. But if you purposely go around commiting acts of evil after you have supposedly been "saved", then you never truly were saved after all since it was all "lip service" on your part. So a person that purposely goes around in an unrepentant state commiting acts of evil, will not be saved. I hope that helps clarify it a bit.

[Wheetsin 714]

It's true that ANYONE can be forgiven of their sins, no matter what they have done in the past *IF* they are TRULY repentant and turn their life around. Once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we cannot purposely go around committing sin (God still forgives occasional slip ups of course, since we are not perfect).

Yeah, pretty much what I said. Do whatever evil acts you do because you aren't perfect. Just regret doing them and we're square. Unless you deny me, and then you're in trouble because that's not forgiveable. So you'd better live in regret.

I'm not saying that's how it "is". There is no "is" because you ask 100 people and you get at least 90 different answers. I'm just saying that from my perspective, that's how it seems.

**edited to try and clarify

I know murderers. I have worked with them. Not as peers, but as a counselor. And I know from my work with them that the vast majority of them regret their actions at some point. Some never regret their actions, mostly due to now knowing any better (be it mental retardation, chemical imbalance, truly not understanding right from wrong, etc.)

So how would your god judge the schizophrenic who lashes out in the middle of an episode and inadvertently kills his sister, but due to his own mental impairments, is not capable of regret?

He has comitted murder, but is not repenant. So it "intentional action" the qualifier? Because he did not intentionally kill the person is he OK? Because people who murder under the influence of drugs don't necessarily kill under intention either.

[skyeblu79 0]

First off, let's be clear on the fact that I'm definitely NOT a biblical scholar. But the spin the Catholic Church puts on this particular piece of dogma is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit essentially means denying the Holy Spirit, and doing it deliberately, and being aware that that is what you are doing. In other words, if you're drunk or otherwise impaired, it won't count. If you are young, joking, angry, etc, it won't count. It has to be deliberate and defiant. If you don't know any better, it doesn't count (in other words, if you were never taught the concept of the Holy Trinity in the first place). So it's pretty much impossible for a non-believer to commit the unpardonable sin. Or even a half-believer.

Some people believe that it means the continual rejecting of the Holy Spirit's promptings to accept Jesus Christ - living in a state of blasphemy, if you will.

Swearing with regard to Jesus, the Son of Man, is not an unpardonable sin, per both Matthew and Luke. "God dammit" is not an unpardonable sin - that's taking the name of the Father in vain, but you can get a pass on that one, too. Profane language does not constitute blasphemy. Blasphemy is the defaming of God's name - basically denying the existence of God.

I only posted this because I was shocked to see that someone else mentioned suicide as the only unpardonable sin. My church, a long time ago, would not allow suicides to be buried in hallowed ground, but they never considered it an unpardonable sin. The official word now is that suicides are troubled people acting outside their "right minds". They are afforded all the same rites of the Church as anyone else.

Obviously, committing murder, adultery, etc is not okay with God. Those are serious (mortal) sins, but sins which can be forgiven.

Edited to add...

The Catholic Church teaches that there are degrees of sin (gray areas, as it were). Small sins are called "venial" sins and serious sins are classified as "mortal" sins. Both can be forgiven, but the punishment for mortal sins is, of course, more sever than the punishment for venial sin. Just as your parents would have grounded you for the weekend if you hit your brother, but the consequences for drinking and driving would have been MUCH more severe.

You keep saying "my church" and this must be something w/your faith b/c this isn't a Baptist thing.

[~Pam~ 0]

Swearing with regard to Jesus, the Son of Man, is not an unpardonable sin, per both Matthew and Luke. "God dammit" is not an unpardonable sin - that's taking the name of the Father in vain, but you can get a pass on that one, too. Profane language does not constitute blasphemy. Blasphemy is the defaming of God's name - basically denying the existence of God.

I completely agree. Using the Lord's name in vain is a sin, but it's certainly not an unpardonable sin. As you said, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is defaming God's name and denying His existance. That's the ONLY unpardonable sin.

I only posted this because I was shocked to see that someone else mentioned suicide as the only unpardonable sin.

I agree here too. Suicide is not an unpardonable sin either. It's just an act of a very troubled person.

[dotofoz 0]

Geezzz, I thought if you go to confession, you do your penance, and that's it.....I find it kinda hippocritical, but isn't that how it works? Needless to say, God (or what your higher power is) is the one and only one that should be doing any juding, I don't believe anyone on this board or anywhere else is qualified, unless you want to bring blasphmey in here again. Any medical PROFESSIONALS out there want to chime in on this?

[skyeblu79 0]

Like that's going to happen! My Baptist friends are good people, don't get me wrong, but even the smartest among them are blind to historical fact, which tells us that the King James Bible is NOT the "original", nor is it a complete, unaltered guide to redemption.

Maybe I'm having a slow day. I don't understand what you are saying:phanvan

[~Pam~ 0]

Yeah, pretty much what I said. Do whatever evil acts you do because you aren't perfect. Just regret doing them and we're square. Unless you deny me, and then you're in trouble because that's not forgiveable. So you'd better live in regret.

I'm not saying that's how it "is". There is no "is" because you ask 100 people and you get at least 90 different answers. I'm just saying that from my perspective, that's how it seems.

No, I guess I must not be explaining it right. A person can't go and commit murder, for example, then ask for forgiveness....then go and rape someone and then ask for forgiveness...and then go and steal money from the poor and then ask for forgiveness. You have to TRULY repent and CHANGE YOUR LIFE AROUND. If a person asks for forgiveness and then goes out a rapes someone, then they never turned their life around. When I talk about occasional slip ups, I'm more referring about someone who used to be a habitual liar, for example, but they are now trying their very best to never lie again but then told a "white lie". A lie is a sin, but there is a difference between a person making a full effort to live a Godly life and messing up occasionally...than someone who goes out and purposely commits acts of evil. "Regret" isn't an excuse or a "saving grace"...it's a part of it of course, but the person has to purposely turn away from sin and try to live a Godly life.

Perhaps that makes more sense...

[Carlene 12]

You keep saying "my church" and this must be something w/your faith b/c this isn't a Baptist thing.

No, thank God....

Sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression. I am not a Baptist. I am Catholic.

My only reference to Baptists was that I live in an area where Southern Baptists outnumber just about everyone else and I have a lot of Baptist friends.

[~Pam~ 0]

So how would your god judge the schizophrenic who lashes out in the middle of an episode and inadvertently kills his sister, but due to his own mental impairments, is not capable of regret?

He has comitted murder, but is not repenant. So it "intentional action" the qualifier? Because he did not intentionally kill the person is he OK? Because people who murder under the influence of drugs don't necessarily kill under intention either.

I believe that God knows our hearts and our extenuating circumstances (i.e. mental retardation, physiological problems, social influences, etc.) and will be a fair judge.