Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Big girl banded 0]

Lauralend-

I agree it is a slippery slope with rape. Luckily with the laws in place as they are women have choices to carry a rape baby or not.

I worked with an 12 year old that was raped by her father. She is mentally retarded as well as the mother and brother. They thought she was had the flu... turns out she was 6 months pregnan BY HER FATHER.

She was in middle school. It was awful. They CHOSE at that point to have the baby. They also kept it. The girl hates him. Siblingy rivalry. Mom had to stop her 6.00hr job to care for both of them. The birth ended in a c section, so now she has the "proof" of child.

Gagetlady... you want to adopt this family? They need alot of love and support but they did what you wanted... Dad is on the run, mom is now retarted and single with 3 retarded children and a grandchild who is showing signs of retardation that is also her stepson.

[skyeblu79 0]

I'd like to comment about the judgment and damnation issue. I have tried to be sensitive on the issue of abortion because I know there are women on this board who have had abortions and regret it. I have personally worked with innumerable women who have suffered the after-effects of abortion. I have never said women who have abortions are damned to hell, I don't believe they are, and in fact I know many of them don't believe in hell.

On the issue of judging others, I would like to remind everyone here that judgment is a fine line. How many here believe what OJ did was wrong? Are you judging him if you believe that? Of course you are. Do I believe abortion takes another person's life? Yes, I do. Do I believe that women who have abortions have killed their children? Yes, I do. Do I run around shouting at them that they're murderers? No, I do not. In fact, I try to help them or, if I can't help them, find them help.

Now I'm sure a lot of you are going to judge ME for what I've said.

I am pro-women, too. I believe women have been sold a bill of goods, that they've been told they can't be productive members of society if they have children without having certain other things in their lives established. I see society judging young mothers, or women who have had a lot of children, or women in college who are pregnant. I see whole societies that so value male children that the women abort whenever they're pregnant with females. Not only am I pro-women, I am also pro-unborn-women.

I know that we are all from different religious backgrounds or have know religion. I am a Baptist and the Bible I read says that no sin is greater than the other. The only thing I have read that God will not forgive you for is suicide. My interpretation is that if you commit suicide that you can't repent.

O.J.-That's between God and O.J. We don't know that O.J. hasn't asked for forgiveness from God.

And that's good that you try to help them. That's what people should do. IMO, it's not going above and beyond just b/c some people don't care.

I have had 2 people (friends) that asked my opinion on abortion that were pregnant. I told them both my opinion and one of them kept her baby and one of them didn't. Ultimately it was their decision.

[Big girl banded 0]

So the 11yo that just shot himself in my town wont go to heaven?

If your GOD and i say that loosely can not forgive that this world is complicated for children and he cant go to heaven then that is just more reason for me to not believe.

[dotofoz 0]

Sure, I'll take that one. The youngest baby to survive outside of the womb was at 20 weeks, although I thought I read a report recently about one surviving at 18 or 19 weeks. Abortion is legal through all 9 months of pregnancy. The babies were still human beings before that 18-20 weeks, though.

Well, then the first trimester should be the cut off. I don't believe I said anything about a FETUS more than 10 weeks, you're talking more. Oh also, I see alot of bible quoting, but what about medical journals or posts from REAL medical professionals, not self proclaimed?

[wavydaby 1]

You reference an article quoting ONE researcher? I could bombard you with research to the contrary. The researcher you cite bases his assertion on the claim that the cortex is needed for the baby to feel pain, but science has well established that even with complete removal of the cortex, the sensation of pain is not eliminated. So if removal of the cortex does not equal no pain, then why would the cortex need to be fully developed for pain to be felt?

Spinal reflex. Its spinal reflex.

In my developmental biology class, we removed the brain of a live frog. It still continued to swim and respond to stimuli. Why? SPINAL REFLEX.

It didnt feel squat.

Its spinal reflex for anything with a spine to jerk back from a stimulus.

[skyeblu79 0]

So the 11yo that just shot himself in my town wont go to heaven?

If your GOD and i say that loosely can not forgive that this world is complicated for children and he cant go to heaven then that is just more reason for me to not believe.

I didn't say that..Nor did I go into any detail. If you don't believe what I do fine, but don't try to be condescending. I am not doing that to you or your beliefs. Thank you!!

[Carlene 12]

The only thing I have read that God will not forgive you for is suicide.

I know a lot of Baptists, and I've never heard of this. All my Baptists friends agree with my church on this one....that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 says, "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Luke 12:10 says, "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

[Wheetsin 714]

Carlene, would you interpret that to mean anyone who says, "Jesus fucking christ" is in good standing, or worse - who commits murder, adultery, sodomy, etc. is a-ok, but someone who in a fit of grief expresses contempt for god is screwed? So it's ok to torture handicapped babies and rape old women, but don't say anything bad about god?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious about how you/your faith would interpret what you quoted. And admittedly I'm also working off a classic definition of blasphemy, not an interpretive definition.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene, would you interpret that to mean anyone who says, "Jesus fucking christ" is in good standing, or worse - who commits murder, adultery, sodomy, etc. is a-ok, but someone who in a fit of grief expresses contempt for god is screwed? So it's ok to torture handicapped babies and rape old women, but don't say anything bad about god?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious about how you/your faith would interpret what you quoted. And admittedly I'm also working off a classic definition of blasphemy, not an interpretive definition.

First off, let's be clear on the fact that I'm definitely NOT a biblical scholar. But the spin the Catholic Church puts on this particular piece of dogma is that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit essentially means denying the Holy Spirit, and doing it deliberately, and being aware that that is what you are doing. In other words, if you're drunk or otherwise impaired, it won't count. If you are young, joking, angry, etc, it won't count. It has to be deliberate and defiant. If you don't know any better, it doesn't count (in other words, if you were never taught the concept of the Holy Trinity in the first place). So it's pretty much impossible for a non-believer to commit the unpardonable sin. Or even a half-believer.

Some people believe that it means the continual rejecting of the Holy Spirit's promptings to accept Jesus Christ - living in a state of blasphemy, if you will.

Swearing with regard to Jesus, the Son of Man, is not an unpardonable sin, per both Matthew and Luke. "God dammit" is not an unpardonable sin - that's taking the name of the Father in vain, but you can get a pass on that one, too. Profane language does not constitute blasphemy. Blasphemy is the defaming of God's name - basically denying the existence of God.

I only posted this because I was shocked to see that someone else mentioned suicide as the only unpardonable sin. My church, a long time ago, would not allow suicides to be buried in hallowed ground, but they never considered it an unpardonable sin. The official word now is that suicides are troubled people acting outside their "right minds". They are afforded all the same rites of the Church as anyone else.

Obviously, committing murder, adultery, etc is not okay with God. Those are serious (mortal) sins, but sins which can be forgiven.

Edited to add...

The Catholic Church teaches that there are degrees of sin (gray areas, as it were). Small sins are called "venial" sins and serious sins are classified as "mortal" sins. Both can be forgiven, but the punishment for mortal sins is, of course, more sever than the punishment for venial sin. Just as your parents would have grounded you for the weekend if you hit your brother, but the consequences for drinking and driving would have been MUCH more severe.

[Wheetsin 714]

No worries on the scholarly-ness of this talk, sincerely just want your opinions. I'm just truly curious about & interested in how different people, not even different faiths, interpret the bible. My father is methodist, my mother is catholic. Neither of them will give me the same answer as another methodist or catholic because they each have their own meaning.

Yes, I should have clarified. By alright, I meant forgivable, not... ignored.

You say it's pretty much impossible for a non-believer to commit the unpardonable sin. How would you classify an atheist? Is an atheist a non-believer, and therefore unable to commit the sin, or is an atheist someone who intentionally denies the existence of god and is therefore blasphemous?

And I'm curious about how you would perceive agnostics in terms of your faith and their - what's the right word - fate? Or what about people who perhaps know your god as something else, say someone who believes there was a great being who started all life, but they attribute that to an extraterrestrial rather than a deity?

Being able to be the objective third party in this, here's what I perceive:

*assuming character* It's forgiveable to murder each other, commit heinous acts and atrocities, give in to your every temptation, destroy life, brutalize nature, hate, loathe, and any other "evil" you can think of, but it's not OK to deny my existence. Do the worst thing you can imagine to another man, but if you so much as think I doesn't exist, you're screwed.

There's something inherently and ultimately hypociritical in that. IMO.

[Wheetsin 714]

And for the person who believes suicide is unpardonable -

What would your personal faith believe about people who sacrifice themselves for the gain of others? The person who runs into the burning building, knowing they will never get out, in order to make sure the families do? In my husband's country, circa 1984 there was a man who committed suicide so that his child could be given his organs for transplant. His son would have otherwise died. And there was also a mother who consented to kidney transplant for her daughter, even though she was told she had no chance of surviving the operation.

Would your god condemn those people to an eternity in hell?

[lisah25 3]

Are you credentialed in some counseling profession? And do you also "work with" the women who endured unwanted pregnancies?

And women who had abortions and are OK with it don't seek counseling. They go on with their lives.

[Carlene 12]

No worries on the scholarly-ness of this talk, sincerely just want your opinions. I'm just truly curious about & interested in how different people, not even different faiths, interpret the bible. My father is methodist, my mother is catholic. Neither of them will give me the same answer as another methodist or catholic because they each have their own meaning.

Yes, I should have clarified. By alright, I meant forgivable, not... ignored.

You say it's pretty much impossible for a non-believer to commit the unpardonable sin. How would you classify an atheist? Is an atheist a non-believer, and therefore unable to commit the sin, or is an atheist someone who intentionally denies the existence of god and is therefore blasphemous?

And I'm curious about how you would perceive agnostics in terms of your faith and their - what's the right word - fate? Or what about people who perhaps know your god as something else, say someone who believes there was a great being who started all life, but they attribute that to an extraterrestrial rather than a deity?

Being able to be the objective third party in this, here's what I perceive:

*assuming character* It's forgivable to murder each other, commit heinous acts and atrocities, give in to your every temptation, destroy life, brutalize nature, hate, loathe, and any other "evil" you can think of, but it's not OK to deny my existence. Do the worst thing you can imagine to another man, but if you so much as think I doesn't exist, you're screwed.

There's something inherently and ultimately hypociritical in that. IMO.

Does it cause your Christian parents grief that you are an Atheist? I think it would trouble me. It troubles me that two of my children do not attend church, unless you count funerals, baptisms, weddings, confirmations, etc.

Can an Atheist (or an Agnostic) go to heaven? I truly don't know. And fortunately, it's not my job to decide. I very much dislike discussions that finger-point in terms of who's "bad" or "good" and who's going where after we all die. I firmly believe that most people are deserving of heaven. I think you have to work at it, over a lifetime, to get banished forever to the "pains of hell", as we Catholics used to call it. But from a strictly scholarly (ha!) point of view....a person who never believed in God at any point in his/her adult life cannot commit the unpardonable sin, as I interpret the Scriptures.

As for any hypocrisy on God's part, I think you are underestimating one of the most fundamental teachings of Christ - forgiveness. But forgiveness requires true repentance. And only God knows whose remorse is genuine and whose isn't. And for those whose repentance is only lip service, or self-serving, or of the moment - those people will not be forgiven. They may THINK they are forgiven, but they aren't. And they will eventually learn the difference.

Edited to add...

I don't believe that doubting God's existence is blasphemy. Everyone, particularly people who tend to be logic-driven, has doubted. It's the person who believes but chooses to denounce God anyway that sins, not the 20 year-old college student who thinks he/she might have all the answers.

[Carlene 12]

I take exception to a couple of things here...

There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief.

I think it's just WRONG for any mortal human to make such a sweeping statement - as if he were God's spokesperson. I can think of many instances where a person might be pardoned, even if he/she died "in unbelief".

On the other hand, if you are unsaved, that can be remedied this very moment. Salvation is by faith alone—faith in the death of Christ for your sin. You can place your faith in Christ by praying a simple prayer expressing trust in Christ alone for the payment of your sin. Acknowledge you sin, accept Christ's payment, receive His forgiveness, and thank Him for the gift of eternal life.

I do not believe in the whole you-must-be-saved thing. I do not need to be saved. I am not in danger. Christ paid the ultimate price for my sins (and yours). He died on the cross. I am "saved" by virtue of his sacrifice. Otherwise, Christ died in vain.

You can go to heaven even if you've never said a prayer in your entire life, or set foot in a church, or read the Bible. Christians today seem to be a whole lot pickier about the whole idea of salvation than Jesus was, or at least it seems so to me.

[~Pam~ 0]

that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit essentially means denying the Holy Spirit, and doing it deliberately, and being aware that that is what you are doing...

...So it's pretty much impossible for a non-believer to commit the unpardonable sin.

I'm a little confused by this statement, Carlene. Did you mean to type that it's impossible for a BELIEVER (not a non-believer) to commit the unpardonable sin?

There is only one unpardonable sin and that is REJECTING Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. If you are a believer, you would be ACCEPTING Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Unless our definitions of "believer" is slightly different. I'm thinking of "believer" as in a Christian or Messianic Jew, who also accepts Jesus as their Savior.

It's true that a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ (like someone who grew up in the remote jungles of Africa for example), cannot commit the unpardonable sin because they never heard of Jesus Christ. If you've never heard of him, you can't reject him! So in that sense, I definitely agree.

But if you know about Jesus and CHOOSE to reject him, then that is unpardonable.

I do completely agree though that a person cannot "accidently" commit this sin. Billy Graham's site explains this pretty well:

The point for us is that if we have received Jesus as our Savior and Lord, we have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit; we have accepted His witness.

One study Bible explains it as follows: "To commit this sin one must consciously, persistently, deliberately, and maliciously reject the testimony of the Spirit to the deity and saving power of the Lord Jesus. If a person keeps doing that until death, there is no hope of forgiveness and eternal life in heaven. Once again, the unpardonable sin is not some particularly grievous sin committed by a Christian before or after accepting Christ, nor is it thinking or saying something terrible about the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is deliberately resisting the Holy Spirit's witness and invitation to turn to Jesus until death ends all opportunity.