Stop having so many damn kids; population control, anyone?

[Carlene 12]

Just thought I'd mention that Dick Cheney's oldest daughter gave birth to her fifth child in July. Not only is she highly educated, but she's one smart lady, as well.

And his younger daughter - yes, the Lesbian - is expecting a baby, too. Congrats to them both!

[StrawartS 2]

Yes, but did you see the article on CNN.com? Apparently the "fundies" are not happy with her! They're actually condemning her for having babies in a homosexual relationship. Too sad.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Conservative leaders voiced dismay Wednesday at news that Mary Cheney, the lesbian daughter of Dick Cheney, is pregnant, while a gay-rights group said the vice president faces "a lifetime of sleepless nights" for serving in an administration that has opposed recognition of same-sex couples.

Mary Cheney, 37, and her partner of 15 years, Heather Poe, 45, are expecting a baby in late spring, said Lea Anne McBride, a spokeswoman for the vice president.

"The vice president and Mrs. Cheney are looking forward with eager anticipation" to the arrival of their sixth grandchild, McBride said.

Mary Cheney was an aide to her father during the 2004 campaign, and now is vice president for consumer advocacy at AOL. She and Poe moved from Colorado to Virginia a year ago to be closer to the Cheney family.

Family Pride, which advocates on behalf of gay and lesbian families, noted that Virginia last month became one of 27 states with a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage.

"Unless they move to a handful of less restrictive states, Heather will never be able to have a legal relationship with her child," said Family Pride executive director Jennifer Chrisler.

The couple "will quickly face the reality that no matter how loved their child will be. ... he or she will never have the same protections that other children born to heterosexual couples enjoy," Chrisler said. "Grandfather Cheney will no doubt face a lifetime of sleepless nights as he reflects on the irreparable harm he and his administration have done to the millions of American gay and lesbian parents and their children."

For years, Mary Cheney's openness about her sexual orientation had posed a dilemma for conservative activists who admire Dick Cheney's stance on many issues but consider homosexuality a sin.

Janice Crouse of Concerned Women for America described the pregnancy as "unconscionable."

"It's very disappointing that a celebrity couple like this would deliberately bring into the world a child that will never have a father," said Crouse, a senior fellow at the group's think tank. "They are encouraging people who don't have the advantages they have."

Crouse said there was no doubt that the news would, in conservatives' eyes, be damaging to the Bush administration, which already has been chided by some leaders on the right for what they felt was halfhearted commitment to anti-abortion and anti-gay-rights causes in this year's general election.

Carrie Gordon Earll, a policy analyst for the conservative Christian ministry Focus on the Family, expressed empathy for the Cheney family but depicted the pregnancy as unwise.

"Just because you can conceive a child outside a one-woman, one-man marriage doesn't mean it's a good idea," Earll said. "Love can't replace a mother and a father."

The vice president's office declined to elaborate on the circumstances of Mary Cheney's pregnancy.

The news was welcomed by the president of the largest national gay-rights group, Joe Solmonese of the Human Rights Campaign.

"Mary and Heather's decision to have a child is an example that families in America come in all different shapes and sizes," he said. "The bottom line is that a family is made up of love and commitment."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/06/cheney.daughters.ap/index.html

[Sunta 5]

I think the point is that Sunta claims to be "open-minded and tolerant" when she clearly is not. No one is denying her right to free speech. But for her to attempt to mask her judgmental, intolerant, disdainful, hateful statements with the claim that she is open-minded and tolerant is just plain disingenuous.And no, Sunta, I'm not referring to your position on that ridiculous statue. And I don't care that your husband is Jewish, as you've been drilling in many of your posts (making me wonder if YOU care that he's Jewish????). I'm referring to the very first post (and the ones that followed) that started this thread. If you truly believe you are open-minded and tolerant, as you have stated many times, you need to have your head examined. You are neither. Declaring a group of people to be idiotic and dumb is judgmental, closed-minded, and intolerant. No two ways about it. You don't save face by claiming you don't want to regulate them.

First of all, are you kidding with the "makes me wonder if you care that he's Jewish"???

You're kidding, right?

I implore anyone on this thread to explain to me why it's the fundamentalist Christians on this thread who are the nastiest, rudeset, most ill-behaved people here?

Can you honestly tell me that attacking me below the belt about my 14 year relationship with my husband and basically insinuating that you "wonder" if I'm a racist is a loving, Christian attitude?

I was the dumb one to think that the fundamentalist Christians on this thread could actually have an intelligent discussion, or seperate my opinion on people who have 20 children from my opinion about Christians as a whole.

The fundamentalists here have absolutely given me a whole new outlook on fundamentalism.

Are all fundamentalists as nasty and obnoxious as you?

[Carlene 12]

Janice Crouse of Concerned Women for America described the pregnancy as "unconscionable."

What an asinine statement. I read the other day on CNN that 40% of all babies born in the US last year were born out of wedlock. How is that more "conscionable" than two women having/raising a child together? The involvement of a penis does not impart either wisdom or virtue.

[gadgetlady 4]

First of all, are you kidding with the "makes me wonder if you care that he's Jewish"???

You're kidding, right?

I implore anyone on this thread to explain to me why it's the fundamentalist Christians on this thread who are the nastiest, rudeset, most ill-behaved people here?

Can you honestly tell me that attacking me below the belt about my 14 year relationship with my husband and basically insinuating that you "wonder" if I'm a racist is a loving, Christian attitude?

I was the dumb one to think that the fundamentalist Christians on this thread could actually have an intelligent discussion, or seperate my opinion on people who have 20 children from my opinion about Christians as a whole.

The fundamentalists here have absolutely given me a whole new outlook on fundamentalism.

Are all fundamentalists as nasty and obnoxious as you?

You're allowed to call a group of people with a certain belief about childbearing "idiots" and "dumb", and no one else is allowed to call you on it? And if we do, we're called nasty, obnoxious, and unable to have an intelligent discussion?

I never said you were a racist. I don't give a flying leap if your husband is Jewish. And yet you have said it several times, many of which you've deliberately bolded. It made me wonder if you were trying to make a specific point about being married to a Jewish man. I didn't know what that point might be, but you went to great lengths to wave your arms wildly about it. Maybe it's important to you that we know you're married to a Jewish man so we know you're not a racist? I don't know. And I really don't care.

I don't think defending a group of people or a lifestyle that you've disparaged makes me nasty or obnoxious. But if you think it does, feel free to continue judging me. But wait -- don't open-minded, tolerant liberals never judge?

[gadgetlady 4]

Can you honestly tell me that attacking me below the belt about my 14 year relationship with my husband and basically insinuating that you "wonder" if I'm a racist is a loving, Christian attitude?

And one other thing. Why is commenting about your husband's religion "attacking [you] below the belt"? The implication of attacking someone below the belt is that one is bringing dirty tactics or possibly even emotional blackmail into the conversation. I don't consider your husband's religion of any consequence in this discussion, and quite frankly I don't know why you do! To me, the fact that your husband is Jewish doesn't make you or he superior or inferior in any way. It's just a statement of fact. But your verbiage and your reaction makes me wonder -- really wonder now -- what is behind your vehement reaction on this matter.

If someone came up to me and said "Your husband is a fundamentalist Christian" (or, for that matter, "Your husband is of Nordic descent" or "Your husband is 5'6""), my response would be "Yes, he is." I wouldn't jump up and down about how I was being attacked below the belt.

[Carlene 12]

I don't consider your husband's religion of any consequence in this discussion, and quite frankly I don't know why you do!

I think it was all about the Statue of Liberty holding a cross. That might be offensive to Jewish people. Would you be offended if the statue were holding a Star of David? Maybe it was the Ten Commandments. You know, they aren't actually ours. They were given to Moses, for his people - who were Jewish.

What about the crescent moon, the symbol of Islamic belief? I would love, just as a test, to see someone erect a giant Statue of Liberty holding the crescent moon and star. I'm guessing the outcry would be deafening.

[Boo Boo Kitty 3]

What an asinine statement. I read the other day on CNN that 40% of all babies born in the US last year were born out of wedlock. How is that more "conscionable" than two women having/raising a child together? The involvement of a penis does not impart either wisdom or virtue.

AMEN! And what about all the damn penises that make the baby and walk away before the child ever sees them? Gay and lesbian couples raise children that are more tolerant, and open minded. There is no chance that they will be gay anymore than if they were raised by a straight couple or mother alone. I have a very close friend that is raising a beautiful baby with his partner, and she is loved beyond belief. Just think if it was legal how many children that sit in foster homes all their life would have a chance to have a REAL life!

[the best me 6]

You're allowed to call a group of people with a certain belief about childbearing "idiots" and "dumb", and no one else is allowed to call you on it? And if we do, we're called nasty, obnoxious, and unable to have an intelligent discussion?

I don't think defending a group of people or a lifestyle that you've disparaged makes me nasty or obnoxious. But if you think it does, feel free to continue judging me. But wait -- don't open-minded, tolerant liberals never judge?

Well said, gadgetlady. I agree! Thank you!

And the fact that I profess Christianity is simply a fact. I profess it. Make all the judegements in the world about it in your own head, but it's something I said I am. So be it. There are many professing athiests here. It's something they profess, they just are. I can come to loads of conclusions about these folks on a personal level, but, to me, it's a great framework for real conversation. I don't care that athiests and I don't believe the same thing. And I certianly don't berate any of them for their beliefs (or would it be, lack thereof? not sure). At any rate, Sunta, you make it impossible to have any type of real conversation of substance with your holier-than-thou attitude. Your words are ugly. And at the end of all of your posts lately, you seem to enjoy attacking Christianity, no, Christians, with statements such as this.

"I was the dumb one to think that the fundamentalist Christians on this thread could actually have an intelligent discussion, or seperate my opinion on people who have 20 children from my opinion about Christians as a whole.

as if we could...go back and read your posts!

The fundamentalists here have absolutely given me a whole new outlook on fundamentalism.

Are all fundamentalists as nasty and obnoxious as you?" (post #186)

and...

"Why are you the only one, a supposed "Christian", who is name-calling and attacking someone personally?

That always cracks me up, when "Christians" are soooo un-Christ-like." (post #152)

and...

"Finally, if anyone wants to start a thread about heathens who don't believe in Jesus going to hell, I would fully support that. Also, I would find it extraordinarily amusing.

Please note I am not "ridiculing" your beliefs, but the fact that I could inspire someone to state that I'm damned to hell just simply makes me giggle." (post #109)

I have said it before, I don't care if you are an athiest or a dog-worshipper, or both. I don't want to MAKE you be a Christian or have 18 children, or agree with me on ANYthing. Your comments indicate that any fundamentalist Christian is automatically attacking you or soliciting religion or somehow making YOUR life miserable simply by being.

I'm certainly not allowed to talk that way, not that I want to, but suddenly it's a problem when you get called on it? Back down, Sunta. You were wrong. Your words hurt real people, angered real people, and unnecessarily offended real people. Your words weren't just thoughts, ideas, ideologies, or intellectually stimulating debate, but your words were toward real people who have a face and a name. You'd do better trying not to dig yourself out. An apology for these folks would be nice. Here's hoping.

[Sunta 5]

I didn't know what that point might be, but you went to great lengths to wave your arms wildly about it.

You honestly don't know what the point might be?

Really?

Again, I was the dumb one to think a fundamentalist could ever understand the deep and heartfelt level of offense my husband could feel when viewing that statue. You would never equate being Jewish with being horribly upset over a statue that denigrates non-Christians religions.

You're right! I'm the stupid one here.

[Carlene 12]

So our front door got this:

The people at the end of my street put a sign just like this one in their yard, for obvious reasons.

It was stolen. Go figure.

[Wheetsin 714]

I love it Carlene, my mom has a small version of that on her mailbox post. Being in the new suburban development that we are, we don't actually get mailboxes, we get the community row of mail slots... or I would have one too.

I also have the front door mat that reads, "GO AWAY".

Even with that plaque on the door, we STILL get people coming up. Often they will say, "Oh, sorry - didn't see that thing on your door", but more often they completely ignore it.

We've truly just stopped answering the door if we aren't expecting company. Too many solicitors of religion, magazine subscriptions, steak of the month, handy dandy super uber spray cleaner, etc.

[Sunta 5]

I'm certainly not allowed to talk that way, not that I want to, but suddenly it's a problem when you get called on it? Back down, Sunta. You were wrong. Your words hurt real people, angered real people, and unnecessarily offended real people. Your words weren't just thoughts, ideas, ideologies, or intellectually stimulating debate, but your words were toward real people who have a face and a name. You'd do better trying not to dig yourself out. An apology for these folks would be nice. Here's hoping.

Between you and Gadgetlady, you two have called me:

Judgemental, intolerant, hypocritical, disdainful, hateful, disingenuous, close-minded, snooty, holier-than-thou, and said I need to have my head examined.

All because I said having enormous amounts of children was dumb.

It IS dumb, and you two obviously are NOT educated regarding the environmental effects, are you?

If you were, you would not jump down my throat and call me names like that, prompting me to fire back and defend myself.

You have no right to tell me to back down, and I think you're the one who's wrong.

Look at yourselves before you start pointing fingers about who has the hateful and holier than thou attitude.

I still think people that have extreme amounts children are idiots, and that they are uneducated regarding the environment.

For the record I know there must be some evangelical Christians out there who aren't as mean spirited as you two, and maybe even some that agree with me.

If you think you two act like Jesus would have acted, I'd be scared to meet him.

[Pattman 0]

And then when you tell people that you don't want them, they get all, "But EVERYONE should have kids! They're great!" and they give you weird looks.

They give you the wierd look because the madness has settled in to thier brains and they're hoping that by convincing you their brains won't hurt so much ... lmao

I have 1 daughter from a previous marriage - would never trade her in, but there's a reason I had two surgeries when I went in for my band (had band and Vasectomy at same time). I didn't want to be 60+ and having to go to my kids High School graduation.

Worth all the pain I had for the first few weeks!!!

:faint:

[Carlene 12]

I didn't want to be 60+ and having to go to my kids High School graduation.

Don't rub it in. I am raising a granddaughter. I will be 60 when she graduates from high school.