George Bush: Worst American president in history

[BJean 16]

Are you familiar with the Patriot Act? What about what he's done to the prisoners in Guantanamo? He has appointed a couple of people to the Supreme Court who are so far right that it has very scary implications for some of the freedoms that I hold dear. I was around when his dad pulled the Iran Contra thing and believe me if George Herbert Walker is capable of doing illegal things because he decided it was right for the country, then Dubya is capable of them and more. He has had the power of a Republican Congress behind him all the way. That's the main reason he was able to pull off this war. There haven't been any checks and balances and he has more power than any president that I've been aware of. It is frightening!

I am sure there are several people (like TOM) who can pull stuff off the 'net and prove my point. I don't use that resource to back up my opinions because I figure that my opinoins are just that... opinions. I suppose if you were to challenge me I might care enough to go find sources, but I am not that invested here. I enjoy this forum a whole lot. I learn a lot every day here. From all sides. But I don't want to get into any p$$$ing contests. I participated in one of those earlier and although I learned a lot there, it was too frustrating. Made my port bulge.

[L8BloomR 1]

BJean, I am not challanging you. I was really interested in knowing if you felt any changes in your life since George Bush has been in power. I keep hearing that the Patriot Act has impacted our lives in a bad way but I haven't seen or felt the changes and wondered if anyone else has.

I do think it is unfair to judge someone by what their father has done. I don't see what Iran-Contra has to do with this president. And appointing judges to the Supreme Court that are worrisome is not unique to Pres. Bush. Clinton made some appointments that scared me!

And I agree...it is frustrating to take part in a pi$$ing contest---unless you are a man, which makes it easier to PI$$ !!

[BJean 16]

L8BlooomR: Thanks for your post. It is so difficult sometimes to know that other people have such opposing views when for the life of you, it doesn't make sense. If we all agreed I suppose we could share peace, love and understanding and reach nirvana one day...the extinction of all desires and passions. But that might just be too boring for some after what we've all been through in this fast-paced, crazy, greed-driven world.

As far as George Herbert Walker is concerned, I frankly think he's a much better man than his sons. Maybe I'm wrong and he was just more discreet, or maybe it's all about the checks and balances he had to put up with in Congress during his presidency. The Iran Contra affair should have been a lesson to us about how easily power can be abused. We don't seem to have learned much from any of our past mistakes. Many of us trust our elected officials to do the right thing. Especially when we are assured that they are righteous, church-going people. (I'm getting to the point that when someone goes on and on about what a great Christian they are, I slowly back away.)

Not learning from our past mistakes is one of the interesting things about stuff handed down from one generation to another. My children, for instance, are like a lot of young people today who don't understand the two-party system. They claim to vote just for "the man." No matter what I say, they don't understand how important the party's adopted platform can be.

They haven't lived and experienced a time when abortion was done in dirty back rooms or in a woman's bathtub with a coat hanger. They haven't lived when we had to line up on certain days of the week to by gasoline. They'e never lived where they were ostracized for having a different or no religious affiliation. They haven't even lived when mortgage interest rates were 17% and many, many people couldn't qualify to own a home.

I guess I'm sounding too much like my parents and I should just ramble on down the road to my ultra-convenient laundry room, after which I can jump in my Lexus and go to the market where fabulous foods are prepared for my evening meal and then ramble over to the mall to pick up a few goodies at Nordstrom. After all, I'm very lucky, my DH works for a defense contractor. Life is good. Much better than when the Democrats were in control.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have no problem comparing them. I believe The WSJ is a respected news source, while almost anything political reported on by the NBC group has become, in my estimation, an anti-Bush piece.

I agree that the WSJ is a highly respected news source, but their editorial page is extremely conservative. The fact that the article that you provided spent so much space warning its readers Hillary is proof (IMHO) of that. Likewise, MSNBC is also a highly respected news source, but though some of their editorial shows are extremely Liberal, the linked article that I posted was from their news department, not from the "Countdown" show (of Keith Olbermann). Yes, I admit that I should have not posted the NPR link, because they are a known Liberal entity, however this article seemed to lack any editorializing (except for the last two paragraphs {of 20} and even that was an opinion of an expert). All News sources are not equal.

I am not saying that the firings were exactly the same between Clinton and Bush, but if Clinton can fire lawyers working on cases like Whitewater and replace them with lawyers friendly to him, then you have to call it what it is. These firings go on with all Presidents and they most certainly ARE "political". To not comment on it being done by one president while making a huge case of of it being done by another one is wrong, in my opinion.

But there are two main differences. Clinton fired all the US Attorneys and it is a (conservative) stretch to think he fired everyone (93) "get" to one or two, and maybe most importantly, he still had to get the new lawyers confirmed by the Senate. What makes the latest story so important is that there was a plot to bypass confirmation (as if we were under a terrorist attack) by the Senate by using a little known (and IMHO, little needed) and easily abused clause of the newest version of Patriot act, and that the Attorney General lied and hid information from Congress.

Even though I admit I am a Liberal and do not like the policies of BuSh, his advisors and his administration, I think you (and everyone) have to admit that they did something wrong or else why would both BuSh and Gonzales be admitting mistakes were made by Gonzales (and others) and why would Republicans be calling for the dismissal of Gonzales?

BTW, I didn't comment on what Clinton did for three reasons. One: doing something wrong (if it was wrong) 14 years ago has little value regarding the direction our country is headed in now and Two: it is not so much the firings, it is the e-mails with the reasons for the firing which are so damning and Three: The abuse of power and concentrating of power into the executive branch by this administration has been unprecedented and it is the pattern rather than just the act that makes it so bad.

If this had been the only thing done by BuSh lately, it would not be such a big deal, but when taken along with all the other abuses of power under the guise of “its a different world since 911”, this stab at the heart of Democracy can not be condoned.

There once was a case where eight policemen each stood over a man who tried to run away from a speeding ticket on a motorcycle. The bike rider lost control of the bike and laid on the ground in pain, but without life threatening injuries, so the eight policeman made a circle around him and each in turn hit him with their long flashlights; round and round it went until the bike rider had been dead for quite a while. When this went to court, the lawyers for the eight police defendants argued that no one blow could be proven to have been the fatal blow, so therefor no individual policeman could be convicted of murder.

The judge (not a jury trial by request of the defendants) ruled in the defendants' favor.

There was another possible verdict: That the police had conspired to kill this man, one blow at a time. No one blow was sufficient to kill the man, nor could any expert have determined which was the actual deathblow, but the results were obvious, inescapable and predictable.

Democracy in the USA is that man laying on the ground. How many more blows before it is dead? And will we know which blow killed it? Will we even realize it is dead before it is too late?

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I was really interested in knowing if you felt any changes in your life since George Bush has been in power. I keep hearing that the Patriot Act has impacted our lives in a bad way but I haven't seen or felt the changes and wondered if anyone else has.

My wife, Tina came to the USA in 1955 as a British subject when she was 8 years old and became a legal resident. She married me in 1967 and has been a law abiding member of our society.

Recently (2005) she became a US citizen because the Patriot act took away some of her rights. She could be treated differently than I would be treated if we were arrested for charges related to terrorism or even if the charges were something as innocuous as smoking one marijuana cigarette (no, she doesn't smoke, just an example), she could be deported.

When we bough our home in Florida, there was a clause, that if the sale was by a non-US Citizen, that 25% of the proceeds had to be placed into an account pending some investigation (as per the Patriot act). I worried that if I die before Tina (and that is a good assumption) what she might have to go through to get her money when she sells the house, so she became a US citizen.

There were other changes also, but, I guess since people who are US citizens are not effected by them, it is ok to abuse people who are here legally (even from the USA's #1 ally, Great Britain).

Then there are the other things about locking people up without charges and eavesdropping. For all you know, I am on a list of people to monitor. We make a lot of phone calls to foreign countries since my wife has relatives in London, Whales, and other countries that are part of the British Commonwealth.

In another thread, someone suggested that I am a traitor and should be prosecuted as one for what I say about BuSh. There was a peace group of people in my age bracket, who were all hard-working or retired US born citizens and they were on a US government watch list. When is it a crime to want to stop people from being killed in a war? I am in a similar group and have taken part in peace demonstrations. Should I be spied on? After the next 911 attack, should I be arrested? Are we building holding areas for the expected arrests after the next 911?

[L8BloomR 1]

Wow, T.O.M., that was alot of info to process....too much to try to answer at least now while I am at work. All I can say is that when Clinton was in power, people on my side (politically) felt like there were so many dirty tricks and schemes going on and felt an uneasy feeling that things were changing for the worse. Now that this president is in power, I hear exactly the same things about him from the other side. I am sure some things are different because of 9/11. To someone like you, that would make you very uncomfortable. To someone like me, who likes this president and thinks he is a good person, it doesn't worry me. I will admit that if the next president is a liberal, I will probably go back to worrying, maybe even about the same things that are being done now. Let's face it: We feel differently, see things differently, about the same things! You are more comfortable about liberal policies, I am the opposite. You have a situation with your wife that is being impacted, I don't. I live in So. California where the illegal immigration problems are overwhelming, and therefore I am probably a bit more worried about lax security than you.

I would never call you a traitor; you have every right to state your opinions. I just don't agree with many of your views, as you don't with mine. I post in these threads occasionally to show that there are 2 sides to virtually every issue, and that they can be legitimate on both.

Thanks for your thoughtful post!

Karen

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

You have a situation with your wife that is being impacted, I don't. I live in So. California where the illegal immigration problems are overwhelming, and therefore I am probably a bit more worried about lax security than you.

However, once one group is attacked or their rights reduced, it is easier for the public to accept another group's rights being curtailed.

Regarding the Mexican border security problem.

#1. BuSh does not agree with the Republican majority on the immigration policy.

#2. No terrorists have come through the Mexican border, while some have come over the Canadian border (and some were caught). I am not accusing you of anything nor implying that the following are your feelings, but many people are anti-Southern border immigration because they fear that Whites will soon no longer be the majority in the USA and that scares them as much as Al-Quaida does.

I would never call you a traitor; you have every right to state your opinions. I just don't agree with many of your views, as you don't with mine. I post in these threads occasionally to show that there are 2 sides to virtually every issue, and that they can be legitimate on both.

Thanks for your thoughtful post!

Karen

Thank you, Karen,

I respect the ideas in your posts and the way you state them without name calling or innuendo, but other members at this forum (and at others) have branded me a traitor and some have invited me to leave the USA.

Your posts have been as thoughtful as mine (though not as frequent or long winded) and I will always respect that.

[L8BloomR 1]

L8BlooomR: Thanks for your post. It is so difficult sometimes to know that other people have such opposing views when for the life of you, it doesn't make sense. If we all agreed I suppose we could share peace, love and understanding and reach nirvana one day...the extinction of all desires and passions. But that might just be too boring for some after what we've all been through in this fast-paced, crazy, greed-driven world.

As far as George Herbert Walker is concerned, I frankly think he's a much better man than his sons. Maybe I'm wrong and he was just more discreet, or maybe it's all about the checks and balances he had to put up with in Congress during his presidency. The Iran Contra affair should have been a lesson to us about how easily power can be abused. We don't seem to have learned much from any of our past mistakes. Many of us trust our elected officials to do the right thing. Especially when we are assured that they are righteous, church-going people. (I'm getting to the point that when someone goes on and on about what a great Christian they are, I slowly back away.)

Not learning from our past mistakes is one of the interesting things about stuff handed down from one generation to another. My children, for instance, are like a lot of young people today who don't understand the two-party system. They claim to vote just for "the man." No matter what I say, they don't understand how important the party's adopted platform can be.

They haven't lived and experienced a time when abortion was done in dirty back rooms or in a woman's bathtub with a coat hanger. They haven't lived when we had to line up on certain days of the week to by gasoline. They'e never lived where they were ostracized for having a different or no religious affiliation. They haven't even lived when mortgage interest rates were 17% and many, many people couldn't qualify to own a home.

I guess I'm sounding too much like my parents and I should just ramble on down the road to my ultra-convenient laundry room, after which I can jump in my Lexus and go to the market where fabulous foods are prepared for my evening meal and then ramble over to the mall to pick up a few goodies at Nordstrom. After all, I'm very lucky, my DH works for a defense contractor. Life is good. Much better than when the Democrats were in control.

A Lexus?? My dream car! You ARE lucky! :biggrin1:

My son was a Marine in the first Gulf War, and is now serving in a civilian capacity in Afghanistan and Iraq. So I should be one of the ones screaming for the war to be over, etc. But he tells me how important it is that we keep doing what we are doing, how much we are helping, how grateful most of the people he comes in contact with are. So when I never see news reports about anything good there, I am suspicious. I know that there is an anti-Bush, anti-war agenda and I guess I try to state the other side when I can. If you read my post to T.O.M. I just sent, you will see that I do understand that your feelings are legitimate and well-reasoned, but I hope you will acknowledge that mine are as well. I don't come to my conclusions lightly and I believe in them whole-heartedly or I wouldn't post them here. I believe George Bush is a good man.... who is not perfect and who has made mistakes. I believe that the past liberal presidents were also good men, although I was uncomfortable with their policies. I am conservative; I will not be as comfortable with liberal ones as you would be, and vice-versa. I try not to make blanket statements or compare a president to Hitler or anyone else. It is inflammatory, untrue, and it is insulting to people who actually did live under Hitler influence. (My Jewish friends get incensed when they hear those kinds of comparisons.) The reason I post occasionally on these threads is simply to remind people that there are many ways to look at things, there is more than just one correct view, and more than one side to an issue. It is great to "agree to disagree", don't you think?

[L8BloomR 1]

Your posts have been as thoughtful as mine (though not as frequent or long winded) and I will always respect that.

Wait until the day when I can retire..... you may have some competition there!!! :success1:

Thanks, T.O.M., for your nice post!

[missy4gordon 0]

#2. No terrorists have come through the Mexican border, while some have come over the Canadian border (and some were caught). I am not accusing you of anything nor implying that the following are your feelings, but many people are anti-Southern border immigration because they fear that Whites will soon no longer be the majority in the USA and that scares them as much as Al-Quaida does.

Maybe this is not a priority to you, but it is for me.....I worry about the drug trafficking coming across the wide open border, not that whites will be a minority, I think that is preposterous.

What is so wrong about wanting immigrants to be here legally??? Fine, let 'em come, but do it legally.

[terrriho 0]

A Lexus?? My dream car! You ARE lucky! :biggrin1:

My son was a Marine in the first Gulf War, and is now serving in a civilian capacity in Afghanistan and Iraq. So I should be one of the ones screaming for the war to be over, etc. But he tells me how important it is that we keep doing what we are doing, how much we are helping, how grateful most of the people he comes in contact with are. So when I never see news reports about anything good there, I am suspicious. I know that there is an anti-Bush, anti-war agenda and I guess I try to state the other side when I can. If you read my post to T.O.M. I just sent, you will see that I do understand that your feelings are legitimate and well-reasoned, but I hope you will acknowledge that mine are as well. I don't come to my conclusions lightly and I believe in them whole-heartedly or I wouldn't post them here. I believe George Bush is a good man.... who is not perfect and who has made mistakes. I believe that the past liberal presidents were also good men, although I was uncomfortable with their policies. I am conservative; I will not be as comfortable with liberal ones as you would be, and vice-versa. I try not to make blanket statements or compare a president to Hitler or anyone else. It is inflammatory, untrue, and it is insulting to people who actually did live under Hitler influence. (My Jewish friends get incensed when they hear those kinds of comparisons.) The reason I post occasionally on these threads is simply to remind people that there are many ways to look at things, there is more than just one correct view, and more than one side to an issue. It is great to "agree to disagree", don't you think?

:clap2: Excellent Post, L8BloomR

I enjoy reading the opinions here and this one is well done.

Good Journey,

Terri

[BJean 16]

Karen: I have to tell you that I am very impressed with your posts. Very.

It isn't easy for one to not be judgmental about someone with such polar opposite opinions as one's own. But it is important if we are to ever reach some compromises that work for the greater good for the people of the U.S.A.

I have Jewish friends who are terribly frightened about the way Bush and his administration have made many decisions during their tenure, and how they continue to manipulate and use their power to get more power and make themselves richer than ever. My Jewish friends are some of the first to tell me that we shouldn't be so sure that what happened in Germany can't happen here. Perhaps not involving Jews specifically, but against people who do not share this administration's right-wing religious and political beliefs.

I want you to know how much I appreciate your son's service to this country. What is his job now in Iraq? I have seen several reports on TV about people in Iraq who appreciate our presence there. (Those reporters weren't even working for the Fox network!)

I do know that blood and mahem get more viewers than showing nice things. It has always been that way. I'm not so sure that the media homes in on the bad stuff because of politics. I think it has much more to do with grabbing the most viewers.

The one thing I definitely wanted to say though is that I congratulate you for your soft, considerate and well thought out posts

[green 6]

I have been finding the past few pages on this site to be most interesting reading and am reinforced in my conviction that democracy truly does live again thanks to the internet; it is here where we can meet in the virtual town square and trade opinions and experiences.

My own parents came to Toronto, Canada after the Second World War. She was Scottish (with some French ancestors) but was born and raised in Bristol. Moreover, her father's side of the family were titled landed gentry and thus kind of lah di dah. She hooked up with my father, a Polish Jew who survived the Holocaust because he ran away from Poland in sufficiently good time to avoid the slaughter. The marriage was by British standards a mismatch and so they ended up in Canada, a British colony at the time.

Nevertheless, the pair of them were treated as foreigners by the native Canadians even though Canada and Canadians were proud of their ties to the mother land and to the British Commonwealth. My mum and dad were always reminded by the locals that they didn't, you know, blend.... Canada was an exceedingly whitebread kinda joint in the late 40s and throughout the 50s.

When my father decided that he would learn Russian (an easy thing for a Polish speaker to do) - and this was towards the end of the 1950s - he found himself under investigation by the RMCP (our national police).

When my father first arrived in North America and went to visit his oldest surviving sibling, a sister who had left Poland for New York City during the 1930s, he found that she and her husband were unable to discuss socialism in public. These were the days of McCarthyism, you see. He wasn't prepared for this level of fear in the New World.

I have a hunch that for people like myself, the well-educated children of people off the boat, a liberal approach is the only logical approach to take.

You see, we, unlike you folks who have been camped out in peaceful Canada or the United States for generations, have heard the family stories and we know how easily passion can slip over into intolerance and intolerance is just the beginning of the slippery slope into such behaviours as hatred, racism, violence, totalitarianism, genocide, war. This is why the big cities in Canada, the ones which are overwhelmingly multi-cultural, tend to vote for a liberal ticket even though this is the party that protects the right to choose and which has given to Canada the distinction of being one of the first countries where same sex couples have the right to marry.

[L8BloomR 1]

Thank you, Terri and BJean, for your kinds words. I appreciate them so much, especially from you, BJean, since we are on opposite sides of a lot of these issues. It says a lot about you that you can be so gracious.

Unfortunately, I have to stop posting for a while; just an hour ago I found out my beloved 89-year old dad has lung cancer and I need to help out there for now.

Thanks again,

Karen

[BJean 16]

Oh Karen, I am so very sorry about your dad. Please know that I am sending good thoughts your way. I have been through cancer with my mother and sister and it is a tough road. My heart goes out to you and your entire family.