George Bush: Worst American president in history

[mousecrazy 2]

Can we move this discussion past the Groundhog Day point? We are in Iraq. We are in Afghanistan. There is an effort, worldwide, to attack the US for its freedoms. We all agree we love our country and want to protect our freedoms. This could be difficult if under continued threat by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to say the least. Can we grit our teeth and support this one last attempt at success in Iraq? I believe one of your faves, Hillary, is there now, meeting with the Iraqi goverment leaders, so perhaps she can work out something. I know it is in her interest to oppose Bush, but even she knows that it is in her interest to be President of a strong country, not a weak one. A winning country, not a loser.

You guys know my political alignments, but honestly....the aim is to keep Americans safe, protect our national interests, stay strong in the international arena (and not just because we are the world's doormat and meal ticket), and defend our freedom and liberty. I do not want us living in a Islamic controlled society, and I hope we are not so politically correct that we will just keep handing over our culture, one little inch at a time, until we've lost ours.

Just for the eye-opening experience that it is, look up milblogs.com and read some of our soldier's own words. And yes, I understand we have private contractors in Iraq/A-stan. Our military protects those people and assists them. I still do not understand what is wrong with companies doing that work, but apparently some people think it is wrong...I have a friend or two who work for Halliburton, and they are perfectly nice people. I suppose they are evil and don't deserve to have their jobs. How dare they work for such a company. Would the other companies like Lockheed and McDonald-Douglass and Raytheon be evil, too? If people work jobs that support the military, should they just quit their jobs? I do not understand this argument, because, it is frankly ridiculous.

Most of us are old enough to remember what happened when we backed out on Vietnam, and remember the blood bath that followed. Do we want that on our hands again? Especially since it might be on the hands of our new president, the one elected in two years...This legacy is not good for the U.S.

Let's give up the past...and deal with the present. Here we are NOW. What is best for the nation, NOW. This constant wringing of hands, despair, doom and gloom is frustrating. I realize it's fun for others, and it serves the purpose of Bush-haters, but I would rather get behind the effort and support it, for the good of the country. No one wins if America fails.

[mousecrazy 2]

BJean, you have a point of view, and I have one....they are different. Neither is naive, not was I insinuating anything. I am pretty blunt, if I do say so myself. By presenting my point of view, which is different than yours, it is not my intent to be insulting. Nor, I am sure, are you insulting me by expressing your point of view.

What I suggested was that people read some of the military blogs. You made a judgement, whether you read them or not I do not know, that they are deluded by Bush lies...which I think is a pretty big assumption. And if I was one of the bloggers, I would be insulted by that, just as you seem to be insulted by the implication that you might be deluded by a media that just might be presenting only limited information to you.

[BJean 16]

Mouse: Who says there is a worldwide effort to attack the U.S. and our freedoms? We are extremely unpopular since G.W. has taken office. We are not respected by a lot of countries, worldwide, and rightfully so. But what makes you think that there is a worldwide effort to "attack" us and our "freedoms"? Is that what you mean by your reference to "groundhog day"?

I understand the argument that we are there now, right or wong, and that we shouldn't pull out until we win. Hello...there are some valid reasons why it is in the best interests of the U.S. to stay there and protect the area from Iranian or Syrian dominance of oil in the region. Especially since this country depends on oil to continue to live our lives the way we have become accumstomed - like there is no end to the supply of oil - like there are no good alternatives to being so reliant on oil. But why not be honest about our motives? Very few people internationally or in the U.S. believe that we are there to set up a Democratic government. Most people know that the idea is folly. Hundreds and hundreds of years of history bear this out.

If it is Americans' safety, our national interests and our strength in the international area that you want, why are you for continuing the war in Iraq which has done nothing to improve those things and in fact, has eroded all of those things?

How has our presence in Iraq protected us from living in an Islamic controlled society? How has it protected our freedoms and our liberty? By sacrificing our military? Are things better today than they were last year in Iraq? No, they are not.

The goals that you have stated are all things that Americans want and need. But the problem with this war is that it is not having the desired or needed effect to protect those wants and needs. Just because people who are pro-war in Iraq trot out those ideals in the context of our military efforts in Iraq, it does not make it reality. Those are emotionally-charged buzz words and used simply for the reason that they work with a lot of caring, patriotic and blindly loyal U.S. citizens.

It isn't necessarily wrong for private contractors to be enlisted to aid in the rebuilding of Iraq. It is wrong for our government to tell it's citizens that our military is being used to rebuild Iraq and that it is for that reason that we need more military there, when in fact, private contractors are doing a lot of that work. What's the matter with truth in government? Why do you think that things have been so screwed up and people are so up in arms about what this administration is doing versus what they're telling us they're doing? Are the majority of Americans and Congress all completely WRONG?

Please don't assume that because I don't read military blogs and cry my heart out for our servicemen afterwards that I don't care about what they say and what they feel. I care very deeply. I care enough to want to save them.

Of course you and I disagree. You can't stop telling me reasons why you feel the way you do and I can't stop voicing my opinions about my own feelings. It's okay. The entire country is completely torn up about it. In fact, much of the world is torn up as well, and for darned good reason!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Can we move this discussion past the Groundhog Day point? We are in Iraq. We are in Afghanistan. There is an effort, worldwide, to attack the US for its freedoms.

Osama Bin Laden doesn't give a damn about the freedoms that you and I have in the USA.

We were attacked on 911 because we have helped the government of Israel treat the Palestinians like second class human beings.

We were attacked on 911 because we have helped the government of Saudi Arabia treat the citizens of Saudi Arabia like second class human beings.

We were attacked on 911 because we have helped the government of Egypt treat the citizens of Egypt like second class human beings.

We were attacked on 911 because we have helped the government of Pakistan treat the citizens of Pakistan like second class human beings.

And we were attacked on 911 because we stationed our troops in Saudi Arabia violating Osama Bin Laden's distorted views of the “Holy Qur'an”.

Osama Bin Laden had wanted to come to the aid of Kuwait because he considered it an affront for the “infidels” to rescue fellow Muslims from Saddam Hussein's takeover of Kuwait. Osama Bin Laden had no problem allowing the CIA to train him and what eventually became Al-Qaida during the Mujihideen's fight to free Afghanistan from the Soviet Union.

George W. BuSh does not care about Democracy. He has propped up many governments that are dictatorial in nature (as have preceding US presidents). He did not help the Democracy in Lebanon, nor the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people this past Summer. George W. BuSh has taken away democracy from the US population under the guise of protecting us from Osama Bin Laden and his ilk. George W. BuSh has caused the death of more Americans with his illegal, illogical invasion of Iraq than Osama Bin Laden caused with his distorted decision to attack the USA on 911.

We have much more to be fearful of in the decisions of George W. BuSh than in the decisions of Osama Bin Laden.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

The evidence remains this: Democratic-capitalistic societies don't make war on their neighbors. They don't provoke zealots of any stripe into violence against any segment of society. They don't fund violent acts to spread their religious belief. The current count world of countries in a shooting war with violent jihadists continues to multiply. This activity goes back even to pre-Churchill in the 1920s in the post-Treaty of Balfour period. The Brits couldn't solve the problem then either. And their resolution of drawing lines on the map leaves many old unresolved issues active even today.

The capitalistic countries (most notably the USA) take and take and when confronted give and give. They take resources and give bombs. The USA funds many countries that treat its citizens like dirt while trying to destabilize many countries that do not want to cooperate with us in our philosophy of a world controlled by the multinational conglomerates and the governments that benefit from the profits of multinational conglomerates.

[BJean 16]

The efforts of diplomacy may not produce the peace, but what this administration has done has not produced the peace and it has cost many, many lives. Surely you don't believe that what we're doing in Iraq is an acceptable means of "corporate profiteering"?

[BJean 16]

That's all very interesting, Jack. Thanks for the info.

[Betsyjane 2]

If you had had a choice of giving Halliburton et al massive lucrative contracts, or bringing back the draft to do it all with the military, which would you choose?

[Betsyjane 2]

My scare of the day is what flames will be fanned now that we are targeting Iranians....

[mousecrazy 2]

Thank you, Jack. I do my best, but you never fail to state the case with consisiveness and reason.

I just love reading argument based in the world of reality.

[mousecrazy 2]

We must deal with Iran. Iran is sending the weapons that are killing our troops, and causing all sorts of mayhem throughout the world.

To refuse to acknowledge that reality is foolish. We cannot operate our foreign policy without taking a clear and open-eyed gaze at the forces against peace. It is NOT us.

Newsflash: We are the good guys.

[BJean 16]

Betsyjane: Does anybody want the draft? Do you think that reinstating the draft would work today, like it did in Viet Nam days?

Is this a factor in your earlier mention of the decline of the United States?

How much can the American people put up with? Or probably a better question is, how much WILL the American people put up with?

But is this all unreal conjecture, rather than being based in reality?

[BJean 16]

We MEAN to be the good guys, Mouse, but the reality is that we are not always the good guys.

[Carlene 12]

There is an effort, worldwide, to attack the US for its freedoms. We all agree we love our country and want to protect our freedoms. This could be difficult if under continued threat by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists to say the least.

Huh???? Which terrorist attacks on the US have had any ties to Iraq or Saddam Hussein? Just because Iraq is a Muslim country does not mean that they are plotting to attack us. Saudi Arabia is also Muslim, as is Kuwait. Why are we not occupying those countries as well, if we are "under continued threat" from "Islamic fundamentalist terrorists". And why haven't we sent hundreds of thousands of troops to unearth Osama bin Ladin, the world's number one fundamentalist terrorist?

You guys know my political alignments, but honestly....the aim is to keep Americans safe, protect our national interests, stay strong in the international arena (and not just because we are the world's doormat and meal ticket), and defend our freedom and liberty.

Stay strong in the national arena???? We are the most despised country in the world. We are the biggest bully on the playground. Our WMD are good....everyone else's are bad...because WE say so, that's why.

I do not want us living in a Islamic controlled society,

Do you seriously think this is a possibility? If every Muslim in the world came together in a united attempt to conquer the United States, it would still be like a flea crawling up an elephant's leg with rape on his mind. We DO have WMD....and we aren't afraid to use them.

And yes, I understand we have private contractors in Iraq/A-stan. Our military protects those people and assists them. I still do not understand what is wrong with companies doing that work, but apparently some people think it is wrong...I have a friend or two who work for Halliburton, and they are perfectly nice people.

I have a son and a DIL who work for Halliburton (KBR) and they are perfectly nice people, too. My son was deployed twice to Iraq and his wife just returned from Afghanistan. That doesn't change what I said earlier. Those contracts were awarded in a very shady manner, the work is often shoddy (mostly due to the poor performance of locals, who steal more than they work), and it's costing US taxpayers an unconscionable fortune. I never said that people who work for military contractors should quit their jobs. I said it's they, not US troops, who are rebuilding Iraq (and Afghanistan). As for them being protected and assisted by the troops, let me just say one thing.....somewhat. There is often a lot of ill-will between the troops and the civilians. And the civilians, by the way, are not allowed to have weapons in their possession, so they have to rely on the military for protection.

No one wins if America fails.

America failed in Vietnam and yes, there was a bloodbath following our retreat. But it would have been no worse had we left 5 years sooner, and many American lives would not have been lost. I call that a victory - not a military victory, but a victory nonetheless.

[mousecrazy 2]

BJean, if we are not the good guys...who is (are)?