George Bush: Worst American president in history

[itsuptome 0]

BJ, I am 5ft1 (5ft2 on a tall day, lol) so the 115 is appropriate I think. that is what the drs say I just want to be in a healthy range than I will decide.

[green 6]

I am curious Green, are u saying these young men are vets already? they have already been to iraq and went to canada to keep from going back? Sry, im sure I could read back but trying to decorate the house with kids so limited time.

Yes, the young men that we are seeing up here in Canada are vets who have been in Iraq and who don't want to go back. They are home on leave. It is at this point that they decide to pack up everything and cross the border. I don't how many there are of these vets. Between 100 and 200 max, I would guess.

[itsuptome 0]

Wow, I had no idea that was happening. As I said in a earlier post I have not really followed the war coverage much as my nephew was in combat there and I just couldnt stomach it. I have to say though, I have mixed feeling about that. I understant wanting to protect and provide for you family and I understand coming home traumatized and in some cases mentally unstable. my nephew was in iraq for 2 tours and missed the birth of 2 of his 3 children, came home with some definate post traumatic stress syndrome and had some real (and is still having) difficulty transitioning back to normal life. That unfortunatly is the fault of our government. My nephew received almost no psycologic evaluation before returning for the second tour and pretty much none after he got home, no support groups no anything (hes a marine, they are strong you know, never need help and wouldnt ask for it). For that I am ashamed, he fought for our lives and put his on the line and the government really doesnt care if he can be a normal person after his return. But, he did his duty, he was loyal and proud and its what he signed up for. His commitment was to the corp first no exceptions. If someone isnt willing to make that sacrifice they shouldnt sign up period. I am forever proud and grateful to him for sacrificing his personal needs for the saftey and rights of me and my family. Understand this has nothing to do with the war or if I support it just morality and loyalty as a human being and american.

[BJean 16]

Itsuptome: We're the same height. You're inspiring me to go for it. My doc says he'll be happy if I get down to 140. But that didn't seem right to me for a 5'1.5" lady.

I'm totally with you about your Marine nephew, who has proven his merit as a human being, a Marine and an American. You should be proud of him. I am.

I am embarrassed and dismayed that our government allows our personnel to be exposed to the horrors of war and then doesn't do everything possible to ensure that they able to regain their health in every way possible afterwards.

[green 6]

I am embarrassed and dismayed that our government allows our personnel to be exposed to the horrors of war and then doesn't do everything possible to ensure that they able to regain their health in every way possible afterwards.

I also find this shocking. Consider that when civilians are exposed to a terrible event professional counsellors are sent to the scene to help them deal with it, it would only make sense that war combattants receive the same treatment. These men and women should be debriefed and, well, carefully worked with after going through the horrors of ground combat.

I am now curious as to what if any help Canadian soldiers receive. As you may or may not know, we are in active service in southern Afghanistan, fighting along side with your troops and those of Britain, I believe. This is where all the fighting is. The Spanish, Italian and German troops are stationed in the peaceful north. Our Prime Minister has asked NATO for assistance from other countries and has been denied. This is bad news for us all.

[LessThanBaxter 0]

LessThanBaxter: Thanks for your input. It is good to hear a seemingly rational person go about explaining why they believe George W. isn't as awful as so many of us here do.

I thank you for the kind words. :^)

I believe you are very correct when you say that historians will have a whole lot to do with how the world perceives President George W. after he's dead and gone. They will probably take a much softer approach than we do - those of us who are actually having to live with his decisions on a daily basis.

I agree completely that they will take a lighter approach towards his "legacy", if you will. His presidency has been filled with many historically memorable events (whether for the better or the worst, I don't quite know).

I'm trying to look at the big picture, really I am. But I can tell you for sure that the Dow Jones doesn't have a hellofa lot of impact on my personal welfare. Did you get rich yet? That was the one positive thing you said on George's behalf.

Have I gotten rich? Heck no. I'm just a 20 year old college student who's taking his time to graduate, as I deal with health-related issues. However, I do know that, even though the DOW Jones doesn't represent every single American or their personal economic prosperity, it does however represent an extremely simplified "report card" (if you will) of the current capitalist/economic status of America. If it didn't matter, then when the DOW was around 8,000 a few years back, we wouldn't have constantly heard criticisms from politicians that the "floundering economy" was a result of Bush's policies. I know that I wasn't the only one who was hearing these constant criticisms. I would watch MSNBC, CNN, and FOX News, and every single one of them would mention it on nearly a weekly basis.

As for us spouting disinformation, I'm not sure I follow you there. What biased information has been put forth? Not that there isn't some bias going on, but in the context of "information" I haven't seen anything in print here that isn't true. Generalizations? Well I haven't actually seen that either. Criticism? Yes indeed.

The information that has been set forth on this thread, for the most part, has described solely the negatives of Bush's decisions and/or policies. To take the time to sort out and post each of these said "biased descriptions" would be futile, because it would just waste my time, and wouldn't prove anything to anyone. The problem with politics (and I've been guilty of this, too) is that, no matter what you say, and no matter how persuasive you make your arguement, the other person is just going to get agitated with you and continue to believe what he or she wants. But, as I displayed in the post in which you responded, I try to at least look at and point out both the positive and the negative aspects of the said political figure, even if I don't completely admire or agree with him. To not do so, or at least attempt to, is when I feel the information gets drowned with the bitterness of biasness. That is one of the reasons I don't care for the extremists on either sides of the political spectrum. The Rush Limbaughs/extreme conservatives and the Michael Moores/extreme liberals have nothing better to do than take the truth, twist it just enough to fit their agenda, and feed it to the admiring public. I've noticed from first-hand experience (partially due to being a college-going student) that many of my peers buy word-for-word of many of these extremists have to say, without going out and researching for themselves.

It must feel pretty lousy when you agree with the President's politics and you observe him being trounced so heavily in a forum like this. That's certainly understandable. I don't blame you for wanting to set the record straight as you see it.

I thank you for understanding, but please understand that I'm not 100% behind President Bush. As a history enthusiast, I respect him for his role as the President of my country, but his decisions often anger even myself. I just don't neccessarily fall into place when it comes to considering him the worst President in our history. There have been huge scandals during Presidential terms (even in the early 1900's) that would seriously rock any cabinet of this day and age, and had political correctness been more prominent in those eras, as it is today, then those Presidents would be infamously known ... Probably even worse so than Bush is, today.

You surely can understand why people here are so passionate, can't you?

I can definitely understand, and people are allowed to be passionate about anything they'd like. I just think that credibility can be diminished or gained if someone is completely unable to see the good as well as the bad. But, that's just my opinion.

People who were opposed to Clinton and his behavior in office certainly were extremely passionate about removing him from office. They were certainly passionate about the fact that he displayed a major moral flaw with his womanizing while in office. Lots of folks were passionate and extremely vocal, and that was understandable.

Surely you can, by the same token, understand why those of us who believe that Bush is a corrupt individual and the worst President ever to have served as President, are so passionate about it.

The Republicans who completely denounced Clinton as a President are just as guilty of being biased and one-sided as the people who either blindly hate, or even blindly follow, President Bush. I believe that this example of political polarity is harmful to Americans, as a whole. But until both parties step up and start doing something, I'm afraid it's just going to get worse and worse.

Anyway ... Besides checking back and possibly replying to whatever you have to say, I'm not sure if I'm going to discuss politics much more on this forum. I get enough of that in my daily life. Hahaha...

Thank you for understanding, though, and for making such an intelligible reply. :^)

[BJean 16]

LessthanBaxter: Awesome! That was the most eloquent and intelligent response to any of the posts here that I've read. I think I'm especially impressed because of your age and lot in life. I hope as you grow older that you can continue to try to be as open minded as you are trying to be.

Discussing politics is a lot like discussing religion or other personal belief systems. We all have certain backgrounds that brought us to our current way of thinking. And you are so right - probably nothing anyone says here about GW one way or the other is going to change anyone's mind or vote.

However, there is comfort in being able to discuss these things with people who pretty much agree with your own take them. It is very frustrating to have a President who goes against practically everything you believe in. Being able to have this forum and rant and rave with like-minded people seems to diffuse some of the pent up anger. At least it does for me.

So I think you're smart to jump in, have your say, and if you aren't getting anything worthwhile from this forum, move to one that does provide something you can learn from or just flat out enjoy.

Best wishes on your success in college.

[smatyas 0]

You can be forgiven for that.

LOL, you have no idea how much I appriciate that...:faint:

[LessThanBaxter 0]

LessthanBaxter: Awesome! That was the most eloquent and intelligent response to any of the posts here that I've read. I think I'm especially impressed because of your age and lot in life. I hope as you grow older that you can continue to try to be as open minded as you are trying to be.

Discussing politics is a lot like discussing religion or other personal belief systems. We all have certain backgrounds that brought us to our current way of thinking. And you are so right - probably nothing anyone says here about GW one way or the other is going to change anyone's mind or vote.

However, there is comfort in being able to discuss these things with people who pretty much agree with your own take them. It is very frustrating to have a President who goes against practically everything you believe in. Being able to have this forum and rant and rave with like-minded people seems to diffuse some of the pent up anger. At least it does for me.

So I think you're smart to jump in, have your say, and if you aren't getting anything worthwhile from this forum, move to one that does provide something you can learn from or just flat out enjoy.

Best wishes on your success in college.

Again, thank you very much ... It truly means a lot to me for someone to say all of that.

Hopefully I'll be seeing you around these forums for quite some time to come! Take care! :^)

[Kathi W 0]

One of the things that I think will make Boy Georgie go down in history is his trouncing of Habeas Corpus, his blatant disregard for International Rules of Engagement (Geneva Convention), and his 'signing statements' which pretty much undo the US Constitution/the Separations of Power.

Yeppers...the old boy is the "DECIDER"....and he doesn't feel he needs to pay any attention to any of the other branches of government our forefathers so wisely created. I personally think he meets ALL of the legitimate criteria for IMPEACHMENT ...and as one who believes that people should face the consequences of their actions... I think it's time for Cowboy Georgie to face the music (along with his good pals Dickie, Donnie and Condi)...because his actions have resulted in a lot of death and destruction for a lot of people in multiple countries...and have created a whole lot of ill will and danger for our country.

[BJean 16]

You know there will be no buck passing with this administration. The buck has got to stop squarely on Bush's desk. They've told him what to do and he agreed to do it, he's done it and he won't stop doing it.

I never in a million years thought I would see Congress give the power to the President to take our troops and go bomb another country. Even if Iraq had declared war on us, that move was unbelievable. And when you think about all the infractions on people's civil liberties during this administration, it is quite shocking to put it mildly. We really should be marching on Washington. I'm not sure that we wouldn't be shot down in the streets though.

And Americans who believe that it's okay that we've tortured prisoners and ignored the Geneva Convention should be ashamed. Americans yelled, "what about the Geneva Convention" when our men were tortured in Viet Nam and in WWII. How can we possibly justify our actions? Nothing, nothing, nothing justifies the torture of prisoners. We expect our soldiers to kill the enemy in combat. But to torture them, with this administration's blessing, is surreal to me. It surely can't be happening.

I saw a very young man on the news tonight who had sustained injuries in Iraq - shrapnel in his arm, which was misshapen, but healed. He was being sent back to Iraq... for the 3rd time! Surely this can't be happening.

[Kathi W 0]

Can you believe that 65% of Americans think that the capture and torture and ongoing confinement of Padilla is AOK??? It sure sounds like we have a lot of souless creatures walking amongst us if the 'majority' is cool with what has been done to this man.

kw

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Video Is a Window Into a Terror Suspect’s Isolation

By DEBORAH SONTAG, The New York Times

(Dec. 4) -- One spring day during his three and a half years as an enemy combatant, Jose Padilla experienced a break from the monotony of his solitary confinement in a bare cell in the brig at the Naval Weapons Station in Charleston, S.C.

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That day, Mr. Padilla, a Brooklyn-born Muslim convert whom the Bush administration had accused of plotting a dirty bomb attack and had detained without charges, got to go to the dentist.

“Today is May 21,” a naval official declared to a camera videotaping the event. “Right now we’re ready to do a root canal treatment on Jose Padilla, our enemy combatant.”

Several guards in camouflage and riot gear approached cell No. 103. They unlocked a rectangular panel at the bottom of the door and Mr. Padilla’s bare feet slid through, eerily disembodied. As one guard held down a foot with his black boot, the others shackled Mr. Padilla’s legs. Next, his hands emerged through another hole to be manacled.

Wordlessly, the guards, pushing into the cell, chained Mr. Padilla’s cuffed hands to a metal belt. Briefly, his expressionless eyes met the camera before he lowered his head submissively in expectation of what came next: noise-blocking headphones over his ears and blacked-out goggles over his eyes. Then the guards, whose faces were hidden behind plastic visors, marched their masked, clanking prisoner down the hall to his root canal.

The videotape of that trip to the dentist, which was recently released to Mr. Padilla’s lawyers and viewed by The New York Times, offers the first concrete glimpse inside the secretive military incarceration of an American citizen whose detention without charges became a test case of President Bush’s powers in the fight against terror. Still frames from the videotape were posted in Mr. Padilla’s electronic court file late Friday.

To Mr. Padilla’s lawyers, the pictures capture the dehumanization of their client during his military detention from mid-2002 until earlier this year, when the government changed his status from enemy combatant to criminal defendant and transferred him to the federal detention center in Miami. He now awaits trial scheduled for late January.

Together with other documents filed late Friday, the images represent the latest and most aggressive sally by defense lawyers who declared this fall that charges against Mr. Padilla should be dismissed for “outrageous government conduct,” saying that he was mistreated and tortured during his years as an enemy combatant.

Now lawyers for Mr. Padilla, 36, suggest that he is unfit to stand trial. They argue that he has been so damaged by his interrogations and prolonged isolation that he suffers post-traumatic stress disorder and is unable to assist in his own defense. His interrogations, they say, included hooding, stress positions, assaults, threats of imminent execution and the administration of “truth serums.”

A Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Todd Vician, said Sunday that the military disputes Mr. Padilla’s accusations of mistreatment. And, in court papers, prosecutors deny “in the strongest terms” the accusations of torture and say that “Padilla’s conditions of confinement were humane and designed to ensure his safety and security.”

“His basic needs were met in a conscientious manner, including Halal (Muslim acceptable) food, clothing, sleep and daily medical assessment and treatment when necessary,” the government stated. “While in the brig, Padilla never reported any abusive treatment to the staff or medical personnel.”

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12-04-06 09:28 EST

[BJean 16]

Kathi: People in America are scared. The morning of 9/11 is imprinted on their brains. It was such a horrific sight and it was replayed over and over in the press. I'm not saying that was a bad thing. We needed to know what happened and understand what we were up against.

But this administration has used the devastation of that morning to keep Americans frightened. We are no longer in our homes cowering, thinking we are surely under imminent attack, but this administration has made sure that we stay so afraid that we have been willing to allow them to do whatever those handful of people decide to do to answer the actions of 9/11. We've given up some of our basic freedoms and we've allowed our people to commit unspeakable acts because of this fear.

We know now that 9/11 was the work of people who wanted it to have the effect that it has had. They were not only successful in bringing down the Twin Towers and killing thousands of people, they were successful in making Americans so paranoid that we aren't using our intelligence and our hearts to deal with the problem of terrorists. We're using our military strength and using it in a misdirected fashion, and we are a country in turmoil over the actions of our leaders.

It is sickening to see how America has responded to 9/11. We were all ready to wave our flags and salute our military in responding to the evil that set upon us that morning. But now we're embarrassed. We are embarrassed and sickened to learn that as a nation we have made those terrorists and the people in the mideast who hate us look like their outrageous claims against us are true. I just don't understand why we have put up with such stupid actions and self-serving decisions from our leaders.

I pray that good, honest people will emerge to take the reins and that they will be able to unify this country in dealing with "evildoers" instead of tearing this country apart.

[green 6]

An excellent post, BJean. Bravo!

[mousecrazy 2]

I am not embarrassed or sickened. I AM concerned that there are people who think that the evil in the world is the Republican party, or in America...at least the Republican party and President rightfully identify the evil in the world as being outside the U.S....not the Democrats.

Believing that Americans are the evil in the world is putting us in a very vulnerable position...perhaps more than vulnerable. Some may call this fear-mongering; I think it is a realistic appraisal of the world situation. Terrorism by Islamic fundamentalists has been carried out long before President Bush took office. How does this fact fit into the world view of the "Bush Bad" and America-is-the-cause-of-the-evil-in-the-world point of view? I seriously don't understand this.

How does this point of view explain how to deal with threats of Iran? Syria? Should the U.S. become isolationist? Give up our support of Israel? How will that help us? If we should not be isolationists, with whom should we be allies, and what would that look like?

Should we be a nation that supports freedom, and comes to the aid of others seeking freedom? All the time? Sometimes? Never?

As Americans, we certainly treasure our rights of freedom of speech and dissent, but we also agreed to a certain type of social contract, where we understood that some of our individual freedoms would be set aside for general advantage of society. People say we have given up our freedoms for this war on terror, but I have a hard time understanding what freedoms have been lost. I suppose I feel I have not lost any personal freedom in my day to day life. I still work, use my car, phone, bank, etc., just like always. What have I lost?

On the other hand, what do I stand to lose? I think I am losing an American society that is proud of itself. Good, bad, ugly, or indifferent...Americans once were able to say, "We are the good guys." Now, too many people look at despots and dictators, and think they are the good guys, and disrespect their own elected leaders. Are all the leaders good guys? No. Are they better than dictators, who grab people off the street and rape and kill or starve their population? I think it's safe to say yes to that.

In two years, about half of the American public will bother to go to the polls and vote for a new president. Yet, the problems in the world will persist...the threats of Iran, Syria, and all other terror loving and terror-supporting nations will continue their activities, and the problems that Carter, Bush, Clinton, and G. Bush have faced will be blamed on someone else. What is the point on blaming the American president? Let's figure out how to address the real problem.

This post is longer than I intended; I don't know that anyone involved in this thread cares to understand the point anyway. Sorry I have no Bush-bashing content. I am interested in the issues beyond who is actually the sitting President.