George Bush: Worst American president in history

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

T_O_M: I read "Hacking Democracy" and I believe the most important observation in the piece was the paragraph noting how shocking it is that the mainstread media and the Democratic party did not rise up en masse to insist that the election be investigated.

I have a feeling that too many of us understand that they are indeed the ones with the guns.

I have been wondering, like you, what happens if once again the exit polls show that the Democratic party wins while the election results go to the Republicans. If we don't do something, and I mean in important numbers of us, we should all be horse whipped.

Who will lead the march?

I don't know what can be done. To advocate the violent overthrow of the government can be seen as treason, though many think that the 2nd amendment to the constitution was referring to stopping the oppression of the people by the government.

We would need a Martin Luther King Jr./Mahatma Gandhi type figure to lead us. Violence, however is so ingrained in the nature of the people of the USA, that I doubt even both Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi could contain the violence. Unless Jesus Christ, himself came down to mediate the conflict, the people who believe that the Republican's victory was their “God given right” will slaughter any non-violent protester, while Rush, Sean and Billy O', slant the FOX news reports to show the triumph of the "True Americans" in the"Traditional American" style.

[nora33 0]

I hate talking politics, but I just can't stay silent about this thread anymore. First let me say I am so glad we live in a place and time where you can say what you really feel and no be put up against a wall and shot. Yes, that is a blessing that a whole lot of people in this world don't have.

The reason why I feel complelled to type can be sumed up as " fanaticism is scarry". I don't like it in the eyes of the protesters at planned parenthood and I don't it in the words of someone who can compare the president with Hitler and the anti-christ.

I am not a right winger, or republican and I have never voted a 'party ticket" . I am not even a fan of Mr. Bush. I am the daughter in law of a holocoust survivor. To compare America today to Nazi Germany is ludichrist and demeaning to the lives and memories of every person who suffer at the hands of madman who truely deserves to be compared to the anti christ. Hitler made himself leader of Germany in 1934, in 1935 German jews lost their right to hold government jobs and were no longer considered to be German citizians. By 1938 jews were rounded up in put into "camps", that same year he was deamed Times "man of the year. In 19369 Hitler roled through Poland, his armies killed everything in their path. Man, woman, children, babies and even animals. By the time he was done the deaths of 2 million gypsies, 6 million jews, and millions more could be laid at his feet. Many had been put into camps, used for free labor (the gates of Auschwitz say " arbiten macht frei" "work made free") starved, torchered and then when they got too sick sent to ovens to be gassed and burned like trash.

what happened to the Iraqi prisoners is awful, shameful and should never happen again. The solders who did this were punshed, in Nazi Germany the would have gotten medals. Is the miltary perfect, no way, would American solders force men, woman and babies into ovens? No.

Please keep talking and expressing your beliefs, but befor you call someone a Nazi or compare America to Nazi Germany, really look at history and relize how lucky we are to live right here, right now, and never ever forget how much futher and more evil man can be.

You don't like whats happening, I get that, but when fanaticsm seeps though people stop listening

[Sunta 5]

To compare America today to Nazi Germany is ludichrist and demeaning to the lives and memories of every person who suffer at the hands of madman who truely deserves to be compared to the anti christ

Oh really? Then why don't you print these words out, go to Iraq, and state them out loud to the citizens there?

[Carlene 12]

I hate talking politics, but I just can't stay silent about this thread anymore. First let me say I am so glad we live in a place and time where you can say what you really feel and no be put up against a wall and shot. Yes, that is a blessing that a whole lot of people in this world don't have.

The reason why I feel complelled to type can be sumed up as " fanaticism is scarry". I don't like it in the eyes of the protesters at planned parenthood and I don't it in the words of someone who can compare the president with Hitler and the anti-christ.

I am not a right winger, or republican and I have never voted a 'party ticket" . I am not even a fan of Mr. Bush. I am the daughter in law of a holocoust survivor. To compare America today to Nazi Germany is ludichrist and demeaning to the lives and memories of every person who suffer at the hands of madman who truely deserves to be compared to the anti christ. Hitler made himself leader of Germany in 1934, in 1935 German jews lost their right to hold government jobs and were no longer considered to be German citizians. By 1938 jews were rounded up in put into "camps", that same year he was deamed Times "man of the year. In 19369 Hitler roled through Poland, his armies killed everything in their path. Man, woman, children, babies and even animals. By the time he was done the deaths of 2 million gypsies, 6 million jews, and millions more could be laid at his feet. Many had been put into camps, used for free labor (the gates of Auschwitz say " arbiten macht frei" "work made free") starved, torchered and then when they got too sick sent to ovens to be gassed and burned like trash.

what happened to the Iraqi prisoners is awful, shameful and should never happen again. The solders who did this were punshed, in Nazi Germany the would have gotten medals. Is the miltary perfect, no way, would American solders force men, woman and babies into ovens? No.

Please keep talking and expressing your beliefs, but befor you call someone a Nazi or compare America to Nazi Germany, really look at history and relize how lucky we are to live right here, right now, and never ever forget how much futher and more evil man can be.

You don't like whats happening, I get that, but when fanaticsm seeps though people stop listening

Nora...

Here is the definition of "fanatic", as provided by Encarta...

fa·nat·ic [ fə náttik ]

noun (plural fa·nat·ics)Definition: 1. extremist: a holder of extreme or irrational enthusiasms or beliefs, especially in religion or politics

2. fan of something: somebody who is very enthusiastic about a pastime or hobby

I don't believe that anyone has expressed "extreme or irrational enthusiasm or beliefs" here. The reference to Hitler was not a comparison; it was a reminder. No one wants to believe that what happened in Nazi Germany could ever happen again, and especially not in the USA. We NEED to be reminded of Hitler and all that that implies.

I do not seriously believe that George Bush is the anti-Christ, nor does TOM or anyone else posting here. I do believe that he has done great harm to this country, to our standing in the world community, and that he is responsible for the continued loss of American lives in Iraq. And I believe that he is the worst, most unAmerican, most ego-driven, self-serving president in the history of the USA. If that makes me a fanatic, then I guess I'm a fanatic. Better a fanatic than a shrub.

In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

[TruBlueSue 0]

I AM a fanatic when it comes to my country and what I believe is its current wrong political path. And, BTW - I DID serve in Iraq, and we HAVE done some good things for the people there. Unfortunately, the cumulative negative there outweighs the cumulative positives, IMHO as one who has been there and done that.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

Nora, just about everything you say about Nazi Germany compared with the USA is accurate.

But compare Nazi Germany in 1935 with the USA of today.

Hitler did not start out executing Jews, Gays or Gypsies. He started with gradual rights reductions and restrictions.

The USA is only at that phase now. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 is one huge step in that direction as was the Patriot Act.

The US public is now condoning the arrest of people without criminal charges being filed.

The US public allows the BuSh administration to distort our legal system by asking false questions like "should we be soft on terrorists?"

The questions are false because the people that they asking about are not terrorists, they are "suspected terrorists".

Once we put someone on trial in a court for “terrorists” or for "Enemy Combatants", how can that person get a fair trial. He can only be there if he is a terrorist or an "Enemy Combatant". And if he is a terrorist or an "Enemy Combatant", he can be interrogated by “special techniques” (which the rest of the world and many Americans know means torture) until he confesses and that coerced confession will be used against him.

You will notice above that I did not advocate violence, but if there is a knock at my door (or the door flies off it's hinges) and I am arrested and interrogated by “special techniques”, my 61 year old body will not stand up for very long before I confess to being Saddam Hussein's and Osama Bin Laden's co-conspirator in 911. It will not matter that I had nothing to do with 911 except watching the towers burn from a window in my home, wiping the gray soothe (and tears) from my daughter-in-law's face (who was there when the second plane hit) after she ran from the crumbling South Tower and then walked 8 miles to our home, and also 2 of the four planes involved in 911 came from the airline that I worked for.

WOW. I did have something to do with 911.

And you know what? If I do get arrested and tried as a "Enemy Combatant", you may not know about it. You do not know my name. Tired_Old_Man will just stop posting and months later you will read about an "Enemy Combatant" from Florida being executed. Maybe a few of the members here at LBT will realize it is me, but will they go beyond a PM or two between each other? Or will they be brave enough to expose themselves to "Enemy Combatant" charges by complaining in open forum about what happened to TOM?

When they came for the Tired_Old_Man,

I remained silent;

I did not know it was him.

When they locked up many Democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a Democrat.

When they came for other LBT members,

I did not speak out;

I only sent PM's, but they posted.

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

If you think it can't happen here...Think again.

[Carlene 12]

What does this news report say to you? To me it says that the US has thumbed its nose at the UN and the rest of the world. Yeah, we did it. If you don't like it, too bad. Pretty frightening stuff, if you ask me.

AFX News Limited

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN

06.24.2005, 11:37 AM

GENEVA (AFX) - Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.

'They are no longer trying to duck this and have respected their obligation to inform the UN,' the Committee member said.

'They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark,' he said.

UN sources said this is the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.

[Sunta 5]

Please let me clarify again that I do not believe in an AntiChrist, in the same way that I do not believe in other mythological figures. My posting regarding that was tongue in cheek, not serious.

I do, however, stand by my opinion that, as Carlene pointed out, we need to be reminded of the similarities between what is going on in the US today and other fascist regimes.

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

What does this news report say to you? To me it says that the US has thumbed its nose at the UN and the rest of the world. Yeah, we did it. If you don't like it, too bad. Pretty frightening stuff, if you ask me.

AFX News Limited

US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan - UN

06.24.2005, 11:37 AM

GENEVA (AFX) - Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.

The acknowledgement was made in a report submitted to the UN Committee against Torture, said a member of the ten-person panel, speaking on on condition of anonymity.

'They are no longer trying to duck this and have respected their obligation to inform the UN,' the Committee member said.

'They they will have to explain themselves (to the Committee). Nothing should be kept in the dark,' he said.

UN sources said this is the first time the world body has received such a frank statement on torture from US authorities.

That report is from over 16 months ago.

How many people will remember about it or even know of its existance when they vote tomorrow?

[green 6]

I am writing in response in Nora's earlier post. Most of my father's family perished in the Holocaust too, but I certainly do not see anything wrong with comparing the tactics of this government to those employed during Hitler's early years in power. Indeed, some American pundits have remarked on certain similarities; fear mongering and the erosion of civil rights would be an example of how to manipulate a nation and thereby get them acquiescent and on board with governmental policies.

There has been a number of people who have posted on this site who have expressed concerns that they may be viewed as treasonous for simply holding views that run counter to those of the current administration. Treason of course means that one has been involved in actions that have actively aided and abetted an enemy of the homeland. Simply speaking your mind in a free and democratic country is far from being a treasonous act and yet this current climate of paranoia has done this damage to the United States it seems. This is kind of a shocker, isn't it? Fear is a powerful manipulative tool for those who wield it, whether they be preachers or the government.

(A further note re my father: he managed to make it England and once he was cleared by security, and this took some months, he served in the army and eventually in British intelligence. Had he landed up in Canada or the United States, it is possible that he might have spent those years in an internment camp instead.)

[Carlene 12]

That report is from over 16 months ago.

How many people will remember about it or even know of its existance when they vote tomorrow?

How about the people who read this forum?

Are you saying I should not have posted the article because not enough people remember it?

[green 6]

What it says to me is that the United Nations is a toothless institution, sadly much as was The League of Nations.

[nora33 0]

I am not accusing anyone of treason for speaking out. I want people to speak out, I love the open exchange of ideas and beliefs. I am tried of the use of the terms "nazi" and " Hitler" being used as emblishment. They mean something and that thing is horriable.

Sunta, I agree with you that we should always watch for similarities between us and fascist regimes. One of the first things Hitler did was ban smoking in public places, but I'm not going to call someone a Nazi for supporting non- smoking bills.

I do not support a lot of what has happend in this country and I will express that at the polls and in the efforts I chose to support. How many leaders from the "vote or die" campain voted, most of the celbs. involved didn't even regester!

We do not live in Nazi Germany, we have a voice, use it! We have choices, make them! Demand that canidates stop telling you how bad the other guy is and start telling you what they want to do to fix things! Write senators, congress people, councle people,help a campagin you believe in, incourge people to vote, heck run for office!

I don't want people to "love it or leave it" . I want people to feel free to get involved. I just think if we stopped name calling and hatred more people would be willing to listen.

I took me a really long time to work up the courage to put my feelings down in the first post and I tried very hard to write what upset me without being condeming or deaming. Just because I don't agree with everything people write doesn't mean I don't have respect for your right to express your beliefs, I was just looking to express mine.

[Betsyjane 2]

It is because of the unspeakable acts of Hilter that we are able to recognize the trend early here. By remembering the Holocaust, we may be able to make a difference in the USA.

[Carlene 12]

I am tried of the use of the terms "nazi" and " Hitler" being used as emblishment. They mean something and that thing is horriable.

Nora...

I understand why those words are such "hot buttons" for you. Most of us were not alive during the Holocaust (well....maybe Tired Old Man was...LOL). We don't have relatives to tell us first hand what it was like. That makes a huge difference.

I have toured the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. Never has anything moved me so much. Like so many others, it was the shoes that made me break down and cry. Something as mundane as shoes had such an enormous impact....amazing.

Believe me, we do not take those words lightly. They just don't carry the same weight for us as they do for you, nor could they. I am deeply sorry for your FIL and all that he and his family suffered. We should recall every day when and where and how Hitler started his reign of unspeakable terror and guard against it ever happening again. But we should also be cautious not to make the words "Hitler" and "Nazi" a throw-away insult for purely political purposes.