Six Tijuana doctors arrested in sting

[Guest WillyWonka]

I'm curious, if one could get banded in the USA by Dr. Kirschenbaum for $10K - - an American educated, American residency trained surgeon, board certified by the American College of Surgeons, with lots of banding experience, great outcomes, and accolades from patients, why would one go to Mexico?

[nicnaknut 0]

WillyWonka.... I agree with you whole hardedly... Dr Kirshenbaum did my surgery and I am very happy with him and his great office staff... I fly back to him for my fills and don't have to worry about finding a Dr in the States that will do my fills.... He is an excellent Dr.....

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I'm curious, if one could get banded in the USA by Dr. Kirschenbaum for $10K - - an American educated, American residency trained surgeon, board certified by the American College of Surgeons, with lots of banding experience, great outcomes, and accolades from patients, why would one go to Mexico?

Well, Dr. K is certainly one of the better US docs but look at it from my point of view.

I could have had surgery by Dr. K, it's a 12 hour drive from Phoenix, out patient surgery, he's done 300 bands (he had done fewer than 100 at the time of my own surgery), no hospitalization, blind fills vs. fluoro, he uses a high profile port which will have to be changed out at the end of weight loss (or he will charge you an extra $600 for a low profile port at the time of surgery), and $10K (or an additional $600 for a low profile Inamed port) plus other expenses. Or...

I could go to Mexico, a 3 hour drive, inpatient surgery, two nights of hospitalization in a private hospital following surgery, my surgeon has done 1700+ bands (was around 1400 at the time of my surgery), is also an FACS member, teaches others to do banding and has for many years, is not just a lap surgeon but an advanced lap surgeon, no fees for routine follow up care, appts, fills (hospital charges for fluoro) fills under fluoro always, he uses a low profile port so it never has to be changed out due to size now that I'm at goal, and it was $7800.

Please know, I'm not knocking Dr. K. From what I have learned so far he's an excellent surgeon with a great rep and not only is he an excellent surgeon, he appears to be a good human being as well.

But the thing is, so is my surgeon.

In the US we have the attitude that to be good one must be US trained. We aren't the best of the best when it comes to everything. Actually, India has a much better training program than the US. Patient care, patient dignity, treating people with compassion is stressed a thousand times more than in the US. In places like India and Mexico doctors don't always have access to million dollar pieces of equipment. In the US our docs rely heavily upon diagnostics, in other countries they rely heavily on a quality clinical exam. Ever hear one doc refer to another as being a fantastic diagnostician? That is a compliment to his clinical exams, it's a big deal. That is not to say they don't have equipment in India and Mexico, obviously they do. But doctors are trained to do a clinical exam in ways our docs just aren't.

So I guess I would ask you, why wouldn't many of us go to Mexico for surgery? Aren't you assuming the US medical care is superior to other countries? It isn't, not by a long shot.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

WillyWonka.... I agree with you whole hardedly... Dr Kirshenbaum did my surgery and I am very happy with him and his great office staff... I fly back to him for my fills and don't have to worry about finding a Dr in the States that will do my fills.... He is an excellent Dr.....

I don't have to fly anywhere for fills. I drive to my surgeon. If I did not want to do that there are two surgeons within 20 miles of me that see patients they did not band and they are not the only docs available either.

If you were banded by Dr. K. you have mostly the same limitations I do in seeing local docs. With the exception of one that will only see US banded patients, all other docs I know of that don't see Mexican banded patients won't see patients banded by other US docs either. I am referring to Phoenix and surrounding areas. That's well over 1,000,000 people. So I'm not referring to a little tiny town in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not knocking Dr. K by any stretch, actually if I wanted surgery in the US he is likely who I would go to. But I guess the point that I am making is that just because someone is not US trained does not mean US docs are superior in skill or ability. Who do you think trained the newbie US docs when the band was first FDA approved? It was mainly Mexican surgeons. THEY are the docs that perfected the band and the technique years before US docs ever did banding.

I preferred to go to the Mexican teacher for $7800 vs. the local student for $16K (at that time).

[nicnaknut 0]

Gosh Wasa, who put a burr under your saddle??

[coltonwade 27]

I'm curious, if one could get banded in the USA by Dr. Kirschenbaum for $10K - - an American educated, American residency trained surgeon, board certified by the American College of Surgeons, with lots of banding experience, great outcomes, and accolades from patients, why would one go to Mexico?

You would be surprised how many US docs are NOT Trained in the US .

my surgeon , i had surgery in San Antonio TX was trained by a Mexican Doc. He's an EXCELLENT Surgeon . Lots of docs go over seas to get their education and then come to the US to practice. US does not always mean better.

Like WASA said Dr K is a great doc from what i have seen and heard but JUST because he's a US doc or anyone else is a US doc does NOT make him superior to someone trained out side the US.

HTH

Mindy

[coltonwade 27]

I don't have to fly anywhere for fills. I drive to my surgeon. If I did not want to do that there are two surgeons within 20 miles of me that see patients they did not band and they are not the only docs available either.

If you were banded by Dr. K. you have mostly the same limitations I do in seeing local docs. With the exception of one that will only see US banded patients, all other docs I know of that don't see Mexican banded patients won't see patients banded by other US docs either. I am referring to Phoenix and surrounding areas. That's well over 1,000,000 people. So I'm not referring to a little tiny town in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not knocking Dr. K by any stretch, actually if I wanted surgery in the US he is likely who I would go to. But I guess the point that I am making is that just because someone is not US trained does not mean US docs are superior in skill or ability. Who do you think trained the newbie US docs when the band was first FDA approved? It was mainly Mexican surgeons. THEY are the docs that perfected the band and the technique years before US docs ever did banding.

I preferred to go to the Mexican teacher for $7800 vs. the local student for $16K (at that time).

LMAO I guess I should have finished reading your post before i posted !

Mindy

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Gosh Wasa, who put a burr under your saddle??

I merely disagree with your POV and I explained why. Is that a problem for you?

[nicnaknut 0]

No Wasa, it is not a problem for me, this is a free country and you can disagree with my POV... However, I merely stated my satisfaction with my Dr here in the States... Just because yours happens to be in Mexico and just a couple of hours away from you doesn't make one hill of difference to me... You have your Dr that did your surgery and you are happy with him, just as I am happy with mine..... I happen to travel alot and therefore I can fly back to Colorado and see Dr Kirshenbaum for fills as well as seeing children, grandchildren and other family members who still live there which works alot better for me, just as it works better for you to go to Mexico....

I still don't know who put the burr under your saddle, but I refuse to pull myself down to your level and get into a pissing match with you......

Have a good evening.....

[coltonwade 27]

No Wasa, it is not a problem for me, this is a free country and you can disagree with my POV... However, I merely stated my satisfaction with my Dr here in the States... Just because yours happens to be in Mexico and just a couple of hours away from you doesn't make one hill of difference to me... You have your Dr that did your surgery and you are happy with him, just as I am happy with mine..... I happen to travel alot and therefore I can fly back to Colorado and see Dr Kirshenbaum for fills as well as seeing children, grandchildren and other family members who still live there which works alot better for me, just as it works better for you to go to Mexico....

I still don't know who put the burr under your saddle, but I refuse to pull myself down to your level and get into a pissing match with you......

Have a good evening.....

Umm Im sorry honey but i think YOU have the Burr in YOUR saddle.

Wasa simply stated why she did not agree with YOU . I dont see ANY REASON why you need to get so pissy with her or anyone else ? I am just as happy with my surgeron as the next person , but I also do not think that MY Doc is the ONLY doc or the ONLY way to go . I dont belive that since i was banded in the US that Mexico is Crap either. If you can afford to travel to Co and get your fills and you can see your family I think that is just fine and wonderful. I think you need to reread things before you speak because WASA was in NO WAY UGLY and in NO WAY Deserved what you just handed out to her .

Mindy .

[coltonwade 27]

Sometimes people on here need to realize that the internet does not allow for peoples personalities to come through and emotions to come through in their typing. So IF you think some one is being a Smart A$$ to you or a Bi$tch BEFORE YOU GO OFF ON someone, why dont you try asking " did you mean that rudely or in anger " Because 99% of the time its not meant that way and people go off for NO REASON !!!!

:girl_hug: << See meant in a nice informative way << Ok a little of a smart ass comment . LOL

Mindy

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

No Wasa, it is not a problem for me, this is a free country and you can disagree with my POV... However, I merely stated my satisfaction with my Dr here in the States... Just because yours happens to be in Mexico and just a couple of hours away from you doesn't make one hill of difference to me... You have your Dr that did your surgery and you are happy with him, just as I am happy with mine..... I happen to travel alot and therefore I can fly back to Colorado and see Dr Kirshenbaum for fills as well as seeing children, grandchildren and other family members who still live there which works alot better for me, just as it works better for you to go to Mexico....

I still don't know who put the burr under your saddle, but I refuse to pull myself down to your level and get into a pissing match with you......

Have a good evening.....

What the heck is your problem? I did not insult your doctor, quite the opposite. If you want to go to Dr. K or anyone else, why would I care?

You'll understand if I don't go into a detailed response until I know if you are going to delete this post as well. I wouldn't want to quote a post if you are going to delete this one like that other one.

[Guest WillyWonka]

I'll admit my bias as a Physician Assistant who practiced in an academic (critical care) setting for twenty-five years.......

I, personally, find it hard to believe that healthcare in Mexico could possibly meet US standards for safety. While "A" surgeon plays an important role in influencing and determining a patients outcome from a surgical procedure, the same could be said for the anesthesiologist, nursing staff, operative, ancillary, and support staff (e.g. sterile instruments?), blood bank (what standards are in place for the blood supply in Mexico?), pharmacy, etc. In the United States most hospitals and some ambulatory practices are accredited by the Joint Commission of Healthcare Organizations (jcaho.org), I would not want to receive my care in a facility that is not accredited by the JCAHO. In addition, each state generally has an elaborate public health department to monitor quality of care and unexpected or untoward outcomes in many healthcare facilities. For example, in many states if a surgeon has to bring a patient back to the Operating Room within so many days of surgery, that incident must be reported to the State Health Department. It is believed by many that this combination of checks and balances leads to improved patient safety and good patient outcomes.

While it is true that some physicians and surgeons practicing in the United States are not US trained, I would think that it is a patient who makes the choice of whether or not they become a patient of a non-USA trained physician. I understand that in certain areas of the country, Florida and Texas for example, there are large numbers of non-USA trained physicians. I, as a matter of practice, rely entirely on US educated and US residency-trained physicians for my and my families care. While I am no longer well versed in the admissions criteria for some Mexican and Caribbean medical schools, there was a long time when US citizens defected to these countries and schools because they could not gain admission to US schools; admissions criteria were much more lenient to Mexican and Caribbean Medical Schools than US medical schools.

Finally, while I am new to this forum, I am having a bit of a hard time differentiating between those participants who are enthusiastic supporters of their physician vs. on a physician’s payroll as a marketing agent or "patient harvester." I wonder, do those who for example are on a Mexican physician's payroll disclose that relationship when they advocate for off-shore medical care?

[Frangipani 1]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...........

I didn't see Wasa as having a "burr in her saddle" either. Wasa just happens to be a very knowledgeable lady who states her opinions forcefully sometimes. Once you get to know her Willy, I suspect you will begin to like her, even if you don't always agree.

Lest we should get on our "high horse" about the superiority of US Medical care however, we should consider recent studies such as the following that shows the US as ranking dead last among industrialized nations in preventable deaths (see link below):

US Ranks Worst In Preventable Deaths Among 19 Industrialized Nations

And no, I am not on anyone's payroll. I am just one of the many who has had a very successful and positive experience with surgery abroad.

Crazy Ates JANUARY Exercise Challenge

19/30 Exercise Sessions

Banded 8/07/07 Dr. Miguel Zapata, Monterrey Mexico

[coltonwade 27]

I'll admit my bias as a Physician Assistant who practiced in an academic (critical care) setting for twenty-five years.......

I, personally, find it hard to believe that healthcare in Mexico could possibly meet US standards for safety. While "A" surgeon plays an important role in influencing and determining a patients outcome from a surgical procedure, the same could be said for the anesthesiologist, nursing staff, operative, ancillary, and support staff (e.g. sterile instruments?), blood bank (what standards are in place for the blood supply in Mexico?), pharmacy, etc. In the United States most hospitals and some ambulatory practices are accredited by the Joint Commission of Healthcare Organizations (jcaho.org), I would not want to receive my care in a facility that is not accredited by the JCAHO. In addition, each state generally has an elaborate public health department to monitor quality of care and unexpected or untoward outcomes in many healthcare facilities. For example, in many states if a surgeon has to bring a patient back to the Operating Room within so many days of surgery, that incident must be reported to the State Health Department. It is believed by many that this combination of checks and balances leads to improved patient safety and good patient outcomes.

While it is true that some physicians and surgeons practicing in the United States are not US trained, I would think that it is a patient who makes the choice of whether or not they become a patient of a non-USA trained physician. I understand that in certain areas of the country, Florida and Texas for example, there are large numbers of non-USA trained physicians. I, as a matter of practice, rely entirely on US educated and US residency-trained physicians for my and my families care. While I am no longer well versed in the admissions criteria for some Mexican and Caribbean medical schools, there was a long time when US citizens defected to these countries and schools because they could not gain admission to US schools; admissions criteria were much more lenient to Mexican and Caribbean Medical Schools than US medical schools.

Finally, while I am new to this forum, I am having a bit of a hard time differentiating between those participants who are enthusiastic supporters of their physician vs. on a physician’s payroll as a marketing agent or "patient harvester." I wonder, do those who for example are on a Mexican physician's payroll disclose that relationship when they advocate for off-shore medical care?

Im not sure why its so hard to belive that medical care in Mexico is so horrible. Granted I was not banded there , But I get tired of people bashing ( not that you are ) mexican docs or mexican hospitals when they do not know what they are talking about . Have you SEEN some of the hospitals in the US? They are VERY Dirty and have very poor care. Poor care and poor quality of care can happen ANYWHERE. So are docs and hospitals in England Bad because someone has not personally experienced them ?

I just think before people make statements about things like this they should KNOW what they are talking about . Would I go to Mexico Or ANY doctor with out doing my research ? NO . Do you HAVE To do your research ? YES . You can walk into a butcher here in the US . I know docs here in my town that all my friends who are nurses would not DREAM Of going to .

As for making SURE you only go to US trained docs , Again US trained does NOT mean superior . And I would not be 100% sure or satisfied now that a doc is not trained out side the US because SO Many are NOT . And as a Not so newbie on this site I too find it hard to determine who is a patient coorditnator , although its getting EASIER . if you look at some peoples posts and ALL They do is say " Try this doc go to this doc " and that is ALL they are posting, chance are its a coordinator " So your not along there.

Personally those kind of docs are not the kind of doc i would want to go to that have to drum up business that way . So your not along on that issue thats for sure LOL .

Mindy

Mindy