Moral Dilemma

[marjon9 6]

I've followed this thread for a while and I do have to say I think it is unfortunate that the discussion has morphed from an analysis of one man's bad behavior to a discussion of how bad men are in general. To the extent that has happened it is misguided and unfair, in my opinion. I could certainly take exception to much of what has been said about "men in general," but I won't.

I also have to say that I have come to a point in my life where I am very reluctant to judge anyone. No matter how bad this one individual man's behavior is or seems to be, we are just not in a position to judge. As green points out above, he may be dealing with a lenthy catalogue of demons, fears, insanities and confusions of his own. We just don't really know.

In light of how important this man and his wife have been in your lives in the past, and how significant the issue continues to be in your own family, I agree with green that it could be very valuable to "corner this guy, tell him what you think, and open the door for him to say anything that he might wish to get off his chest." Unless that conversation takes place, and takes place with an open heart an mind, there is no basis for judging anything or anybody, no matter how things may "seem."

[Carlene 12]

Have you considered talking to him about this situation and about your feelings?

He knows my feels. DH told him. He said, "I'm real sorry to hear that."

I am unsure as to how valuable his friendship is to your husband and how valuable the continued friendship of your husband and of you yourself is to this man.

He and DH have been friends for over 40 years. DH loves him like a brother. I have to be "nice" to Mr P, for the sake of DH.

It does strike me that his love for his wife was genuine and it also strikes me that men - men much more than women - can become unanchored under these circumstances.

You have no idea what a great husband this guy was to Mrs P.....for 40 years. He treated her like a queen - truly. He was the best of all the "good husbands" I know, or have ever known.

As we all know, women can rest in a state of widowhood, go through their time of mourning, and then perhaps remarry. Men tend to leap into a second marriage right away.

Very true.....except that most people - even most men - wait until their spouse is actually dead before they move another woman into their house.

On the other hand, it strikes me that he is an old man and that he is confused, frightened and is behaving very, very badly as a result.

He's 60.....looks 50, though.

I'm just going to be as civil as I can, when I have to be. But I draw the line at socializing with Mr P and his girlfriend. It's a compromise....my best offer. And DH is just going to have to deal with that.

[Carlene 12]

I've followed this thread for a while and I do have to say I think it is unfortunate that the discussion has morphed from an analysis of one man's bad behavior to a discussion of how bad men are in general. To the extent that has happened it is misguided and unfair, in my opinion. I could certainly take exception to much of what has been said about "men in general," but I won't.

I also have to say that I have come to a point in my life where I am very reluctant to judge anyone. No matter how bad this one individual man's behavior is or seems to be, we are just not in a position to judge. As green points out above, he may be dealing with a lenthy catalogue of demons, fears, insanities and confusions of his own. We just don't really know.

In light of how important this man and his wife have been in your lives in the past, and how significant the issue continues to be in your own family, I agree with green that it could be very valuable to "corner this guy, tell him what you think, and open the door for him to say anything that he might wish to get off his chest." Unless that conversation takes place, and takes place with an open heart an mind, there is no basis for judging anything or anybody, no matter how things may "seem."

I don't think men are bad "in general". I thought, until now, that there were a fair number of good guys left. Now I'm not so sure. If Mr P, the all-time (in my estimation) winner of the world's best husband title, then anyone's husband is capable of doing the same thing - even mine. That knowledge makes me feel very insecure....very vulnerable.

We all judge people's actions. That's way different than judging them in the Biblical sense. I said he was a creep. I said that what he has done to his wife is wrong - especially not going to the home regularly and seeing with his own eyes if she is being cared for properly or not. I said his actions were horribly disrespectful to a woman who has given him 40 years of her life, whether she "knows" what is going on, or not. If that is judging him then so be it. I just don't have it in me to say, "Poor Mr P.....maybe he's suffering from depression and that's why he's taken to screwing another woman in his wife's bed, while she lays neglected and possibly dying in a nursing home - alone."

[Lap_dancer 8]

Mr. P came for a brief visit today. First time I've seen him since he put Mrs P away. I made sure I had someplace I had to go and ducked out shortly after his arrival. I did speak to him - pleasantly.

He is having Mrs P moved today to a less expensive facility. I figured this would happen as soon as Medicare opted out, plus he did not expect her to live past the first of the year.

What a jerk he has turned out to be.

The more involved he becomes in his own life, the less he becomes involved in his former life.

My father passed in some 10 years ago. Growing up was a strict lesson in a religious and rigorous self denial of anything pleasing to the flesh (but food). Now you would hardly know it was my mother since she remarried. She cusses, drinks and it's a whole other her that I never knew was there. This bothers me to expose my young adult children to this version of their grandmother. The other part is my brother who left his wife for another woman. All hell breaks loose after 40.

My own personal values obviously are not that of my mother and brother. What I do to cope with it is draw the line of where I can tolerate and where I cannot. Ask yourself if this was a coworker or longtime friend would you still speak to them? Your husband enjoys his friendship and from that I would take joy that my husband still takes happiness from this friendship. (not my choice or yours but his and independent things seperate from eachother is a good thing). I think you are being a great wife smiling and being pleasant. I would say things like "thank you for keeping us updated on "Marge" it means alot". Have you considered going to visit her? She may not recognize you but the people at the home would know that others do care about her condition and may be more inclined to tend to her in a prudent manner.

My two cents.

[green 6]

I don't think men are bad "in general". I thought, until now, that there were a fair number of good guys left. Now I'm not so sure. If Mr P, the all-time (in my estimation) winner of the world's best husband title, then anyone's husband is capable of doing the same thing - even mine. That knowledge makes me feel very insecure....very vulnerable.

"

Watching all of this go on would also make me feel very insecure and vulnerable in my own relationsip with my own mate; in your case it must be particularly so in that your husband's continued friendship with this pair gives the appearance that he condones Mr. P's behaviour. Men can sometimes be less sensitive to these nuances than we are - sorry, Marjon! Have you talked to your husband about this aspect of the situation?

As for my earlier assessment of Mr. P's behaviour, I forgot that the dude is only 60. I thought that he was older and more befuddled. My bad.

[Carlene 12]

I am so mad at my DH's friend, Mr. P. Today he e-mailed ME pics of him and his live-in girlfriend!!! Of course, it started another argument between DH and myself. I think it was a totally in-your-face thing for him to do, knowing, as he does, how I feel about their relationship. DH is afraid that I am going to "destroy" his 40 year friendship with Mr. P. I have no intention of doing any such thing. I was even civil when Mr P came to my house a few weeks ago. But this was just so not cool of him. I did not respond to the e-mail. Men are pigs (present company excluded).

[L8BloomR 1]

Carlene, I think you have great instincts and strong convictions! It must be (maybe secretly) thrilling for your husband to see how loyal you are to your wedding vows and how strongly you feel about "till death do us part", even if he feels he must stand up for his friend. As long as you are not rude to Mr. P, you are doing what you should be doing....holding firm to what you believe is right.

As far as the "caregiver" is concerned, I co-own and run a home/health care agency. We have seen and heard of the worse things.... caregivers deliberately seducing the husband of a patient, especially if he has money, and then bragging to other caregivers about what they have done. They get them when the husband is vulnerable and willing to buy them anything for another chance to feel "young" again. Some of these men will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to impress their new lady-love. I cannot tell you how much destruction they can cause to the family. It is awful. After they have gotten all they want, the husband is left alone and much poorer....

I don't know the "friend" of Mr. P, so I cannot guess what she is getting out of this relationship, but I would try to remain somewhat friendly with Mr. P, because I think the day is coming when he may really need your shoulder to cry on. Good luck and stay strong!

[green 6]

Do you have any pics of him with his wife that you could email him? Maybe with a little note along the lines of "oh, your recent email reminded me that I had just came across these photographs and was thinking that I would share them with you." It's a naughty suggestion on my part, I know.:heh:

[mrspruett 0]

Hopefully Mrs. P will never find out that Mr. P was not the man she thought he was. Sometimes people we love do not live up to the pedestal we put them on. I agree with all who said that men simply react different to the loss of a spouse than women do. I love my husband dearly and I know he loves me but there is not a doubt in my mind that in the event of my death he would enter the dating world very quickly LOL. I can only hope that, unlike Mr. P, he would wait until I am actually dead. I guess the vow "in sickness and in health" does not mean much to some people.

[Carlene 12]

Do you have any pics of him with his wife that you could email him? Maybe with a little note along the lines of "oh, your recent email reminded me that I had just came across these photographs and was thinking that I would share them with you." It's a naughty suggestion on my part, I know.:heh:

Green, you are so BAD! I love it! But I don't dare...my DH would kill me.

[Victoriana 10]

I wish you could bounce his e-mail back without him knowing that you had opened it, marked undeliverable. I think that was really in your face, and obviously it buggs him that you dont embace his new relationship. Can you visit his wife, then when he visits next time you can let him know how wonderful your visit with her was? He needs manners, if not counseling.

[green 6]

Green, you are so BAD! I love it! But I don't dare...my DH would kill me.

I dunno. He started it by sending you those photos....:nervous

[anonemouse 1]

I dunno. He started it by sending you those photos....:nervous

That's about the way I feel, too. I think the fact that he went out of his way to shove the relationship in your face absolves you of any guilt in trying to remind him of his marriage. Your DH should get mad at him, not you, because you have trying to stay out of it.

[lisah25 3]

That's about the way I feel, too. I think the fact that he went out of his way to shove the relationship in your face absolves you of any guilt in trying to remind him of his marriage. Your DH should get mad at him, not you, because you have trying to stay out of it.

I wondered if his motivation was really to shove the relationship in Carlene's face, or try to show her he was happy, in (misguided) attempt to win her over?

[anonemouse 1]

I wondered if his motivation was really to shove the relationship in Carlene's face, or try to show her he was happy, in (misguided) attempt to win her over?

If that was his intent, I think he's a few monkeys short of a barrel.