Moral Dilemma

[tommygirl 0]

Hi,

The issue you brought up here is one that hits home for me. When I was nine years old, (there were five kids all within 5 years of each other, oldest 11 youngest 6) my Mom got pregnant with child number 6. During her pregnancy she kept having dizzy spells and she would fall alot. At first they thought she had a brain tumor and my Dad gathered us kids up and prepared us for the worst. By the time my brother was born, they had figured out that she had a very progressive form of MS. Her condition deteriorated rapidly after the birth, the two of us older girls pretty much raised the baby. After about three years, she was in a wheelchair or in bed at all times, and my Dad left us. It was so hard because she could not work and she was afraid to get help for us because she thought the state would take us children away. We took care of my Mom and the baby and wondered where our Dad went. Growing up like that was very hard and alot of times I hated him, but my Mom was the most patient and caring woman who has ever lived and she tried to teach me to forgive him. She said that she forgave him and that it would be hard for anyone to stay, especially if they weren't very strong. Sometimes I would get sort of mad at her for not getting angry but she said it only hurts us to harbor hate. Growing up like that you would think I would really be against Mr. P, but I guess having a Mom like her made me sort of see it from both sides. Either way I know how hard it is and I will say a prayer for Mrs. and Mr. P. and hope that they find the right path.

Kristin

[Carlene 12]

Now does that make me a bad person? Is Mr. P a bad person, or ready to jump the bones of the caretaker, just because he stated that sometimes death is not a bad thing?

I replied to this earlier and the post never showed up. Forgive me if this turns out to be a rerun.

To answer your question, no. You are not a bad person, nor is Mr P. He is a wonderful person. For 40 years he has been the epitome of the devoted husband. And death isn't always a bad thing. In the case of my late husband it certainly wasn't. He had terminal Cancer.

My mom had Parkinson's Disease for many years. It left her physically unable to care for herself, as well as angry, combative, paranoid and extremely disagreeable. It stole her memory and her ability to enjoy life. She wanted me to quit my job, leave my husband to care for our 4 children, and move into her house, so I could take care of her 24/7. I refused, but I don't think that made me a bad person. My mother and I had a relationship that was of her making - not mine. I never took a vow or made a promise that I would care for my mother "til death do us part". I did do my best to look after her, without totally derailing my own life. I think I was a good daughter. I think you were, too.

I forgot to mention that as she was wheeled out of her home for the last time and into the waiting ambulance, Mrs P took the caretaker's hand, looked her in the face, and said, "I love you." That, I think, would have stopped me cold in my tracks.

Anyway, I don't think I am especially strong. The only thing I take credit for is waiting until after my husband died before I started dating.

[Kat817 19]

Carlene, something Green just said, struck a chord in me. She said to talk to him directly. That combined with his remark of death not being so bad, made me wonder something. Is it possible he has hooked himself up with this woman, the caretaker, simply because she will talk to him about what is happening, and he confuses those feelings as saying she too cares. Which may make her seem like a loving person, comparable to what he has essentially lost in his wife. We lost my Grandma to Alzheimers Disease, many years ago, and my Grandpa took care of her faithfully. But it always freaked my Mom out that he wanted to talk about it so much. She would try to make conversation about anything but that, thinking it would give him a break. Maybe if you and your DH did have a talk with him, all alone, leave her out of it, and I wouldn't say anything negative about her yet...but just talk, let him vent if he needs to. He may open up to you in a way he wouldn't to your DH. If he never seemed the type of person to do this before, I would worry that his mind is not in a proper place to be rational about what is or isn't happening with the other woman. Maybe she (the caretaker) would not fall under such a "special" light, if others were as willing to be open and honest with what he has already lost even though she is still physically alive.

I can only imagine how difficult this must be for you. My Mom is dealing with my Uncle bringing around his new woman....but his late wife was my Mom's little sister. She is having a very hard time. I wish you peace in making a decision with this, and will remember your friend in my prayers.

Kat

[Kat817 19]

OOOpps me too, my post went missing, and when I redid it I screwed up the names...sorry guys!!!

Kat

[carol134 0]

I want to confess something here in hopes it will help. We can never get "inside" someone else's brain or understand their feelings, but here I go.

A year before my Dad died he started going downhill. It was little things I noticed. I lived 25 miles away. He lived alone and had a steady girlfriend. Not sure what their relationship was all about.

Anyway, I would go down every week and do grocery shopping with him, clean the house, etc. I worked a full job, traveled lots, had an active social life, etc. I did my part to make him happy and to take care of him. He wouldn't let me have a cleaning service come in, he wouldn't move in with me, and generally didn't make it easy.

As he got worse it became more unbearable for me. I called everyday, usually twice. If it was a good day then I felt better and relieved, but if it was a bad day I worried myself sick. I found a brand new independent and assisted living facility nearer to my home. I took Dad to the sample apartments and he seemed intrigued. We got him on the list and he started selling his tools and things. He was getting worse. I was growing tired and emotionaly not in a good place. The strain of taking care of a elder parent was draining.

When it came time to finalized the apartment he refused. He wanted to stay at his home. I was at my wits end. Its hard forcing your parent to do something they don't want to do. I didn't. FInally I needed surgery and I sent my Dad to stay with my sister in Baltimore. I knew when I put him on the plane that would be the last time I saw him. He died 6 weeks later of natural causes, even though I blamed my sister. :success1:

I felt relief. Relief that he wouldn't suffer anymore, relief that I wouldn't have to cope with the situation, relief that we wouldn't have to watch him go downhill, relief that I wouldn't have to force him to do or live somewhere he didn't want to.

Now does that make me a bad person? Is Mr. P a bad person, or ready to jump the bones of the caretaker, just because he stated that sometimes death is not a bad thing?

I know Carlene that you took care of your dying husband. Some of us are not as strong as you. It doesn't mean we loved our loved ones any less. Sorry for being so long in this post. This whole situation hits a raw nerve in me. Its not as easy always as we sometimes make our decisions seem.

Thanks for taking the time to write that, I needed to read it. My mother died in June and cannot seem to move forward on this. I loved her and she was everything to me. She had alzhiemers, that of which she was only getting worse, it was horrible watching her. Anyway she died because she would not walk for many years, she would not do much of anything. This caused a blood clot to form in her leg and it went to her heart and killed her instantly.

I think these are situations that we can say death is better. I always try to remember that when I have my very bad days of not having her in my life anymore.:cry

[Carlene 12]

I want to make one thing perfectly clear....I have not mentioned Mr P's activities or speculated on his future behavior with anyone who actually knows him. In other words, I have not fed the rumor mill. I thought LBT was a totally safe place to vent my feelings without doing any harm to either Mr P's reputation or that of the caregiver. I do not presume to think that the behavior of consenting adults is in any way my business. The only legitimate reason I have for even updating the thread is the impact these events have had, or will have, on my own marital relationship.

I cannot assure my DH that I will be comfortable socializing (double dating?) with Mr P and the caretaker as long as Mrs P is alive, and that makes him (DH) very unhappy with me. Moreover, he has declared that should the occasion arise (and even he agrees that it's almost inevitable), he will be going to dinner, movies, etc with the happy couple, if that's the way I am going to be. He will simply tell them I am sick....or busy...or something. I, on the other hand, would prefer that he say something (to Mr P) along the lines of, "Carlene said she would love to see you, but it would make her uncomfortable if you brought a date." Does that sound so awful? If it sounds awful (and self-righteous), what's the alternative? Force myself to do something that goes totally against my grain? Why would I do that? Why is it incumbent on me to make someone feel at ease when I don't think they should be feeling anything of the kind? How did I get to be the bad guy?

And in response to your comments regarding wedding vows, TOM...I hold my vows sacred. ...to be my lawfully wedded husband. For better or for worse. For richer or poorer. In sickness and in health. For as long as we both shall live. I think it would be nice if more people took theirs seriously, too. But if they don't, they don't.

Would I snub people who don't live up to my standards? Certainly not. But we choose our friends because of commonalities. I'm not a party-til-you-puke kind of girl, thus I don't enjoy being around people who are. I wouldn't attend a swingers party, even to spare my best friend's feelings. I would never cheat on my husband and would rather my friends didn't invite me along while they cheat on theirs.

[Carlene 12]

Thanks for taking the time to write that, I needed to read it. My mother died in June and cannot seem to move forward on this. I loved her and she was everything to me. She had alzhiemers, that of which she was only getting worse, it was horrible watching her. Anyway she died because she would not walk for many years, she would not do much of anything. This caused a blood clot to form in her leg and it went to her heart and killed her instantly.

I think these are situations that we can say death is better. I always try to remember that when I have my very bad days of not having her in my life anymore.:cry

Carol...

I lost my mom in a very similar fashion, though she had been ill for years with Parkinson's Disease. She threw a blood clot that hit her lungs and caused pneumonia. I took her to the ER and they were treating the pneumonia, then she threw another clot, but they were able to revive her. The doctor had me fill out some forms, outlining what measures they could use to sustain her life, and which they could not. You check the boxes... yes__ no__

all down the list. It was awful. I felt like an executioner.

She was in ICU, on a Heparin drip, and her doctor was standing next to the bed when she died. A massive clot hit her brain and she was gone in a second. Not 10 minutes before, she was complaining because they hadn't brought her Breakfast.

The quality of my mom's life had been extremely poor for years. She left her house only when she had to go to the doctor. Before my mom died I thought that losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to both of us. Years later, when my husband's Cancer started to advance, I realized that I had been wrong. My mom's death was very sudden (and painless), and that in itself is a huge blessing.

[Victoriana 10]

Hello Carlene, I do hold my vows as sacred, and I love my hubby with all my heart, as he loves me and wouldnt ask me to do something that makes me uncomfortable. If Mr.P needs male companionship, your hubby sounds very compasionate.

I also understand that submission to my DH doesnt make me a doormat, He provides spiritual covering to me to which I respect him for, and if he were to ask me to attend a dinner with Mr.P I would also find that more than uncomfortable.

However, I wouldnt automatically assume that Mr.P is having a sexual relationship, call me nieve, but I wouldnt even ask about such a thing. I would assume that he finds it easy to be around the caregiver as they share the common bond of Mrs. P....

Why dont you write a card to Mr. P and let him know how sad you are about Mrs. P and that a friendship or aquantence with the caregiver would seem awkward, as you respect his marraige to Mrs P., even though the caregiver could be a fabulous person. Perhaps he would understand that in time, there could be a friendship in the making but for now its too soon.

I think if you honor your DH with the courtesy of a meeting with Mr. P and the caregiver, whith his (DH) understanding that you will deliver this notecard, your DH may not want you to go after all. But for DH to ask you to not be true to yourself is unfair, you respect him and yourself too much for that.

I also find that prayer to find favor in your own DH's eyes is very powerfull. How could he not love you for honoring the institution of marraige and Him in the process?

Bless your heart, you will find the right thing to do, and say.

[libertysuzanne 1]

This is a subject that is very fresh in my mind.

My mum passed away last year and I must admit that it was a relief. I know that sounds horrible but the relationship with my parents has always been a complicated one. I loved my mother dearly but there were things that happened as i grew up that caused me to harbour a hate that has only now gone away.

Both my parents were disabled, mum was a under the knee amputee, but you would never have guessed it. My dad has MS. He was officially diagnosed when I was 5 and my sister looked in the reference books and declared he would be dead in 2 years. So we had all prepared for it - this was long before the internet. Of course he didn't die and life went on as he slowly detrioated.

I really was to young to remember life as any different when mum closed the shop she ran so it could be converted into a downstairs bedroom for dad. The Issue I need to bring out which bears a starkling resemblance to your situation Carlene is that my mother had affairs with men even though Dad still lived with us. I discovered this and lied to dad for 2 years to spare his feelings, until one day it got to much and I had to say something. I found out that day, that dad knew all about it. It was shattering to me, I don't think I have truly gotten over the double betrayal.

Anyway life went on, I grew up and left home as quickly as i could. Without really losing touch with my parents. Until I fell pregnant and then I came to live in the same town as mum and dad. Dad lived in Sheltered accomodation. We all thought that dad would be the first to go, but he has a constitution of an ox. He is 77 now and his mind is as bright as a button, even physically he is pretty good for an MS sufferer.

The same could not be said for mum. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer, not of the lungs as you would expect from a woman who smoked from the age of 18 and never gave up. THe lung wa sonly minor, hence why it wasn't picked up. The cancer had gone to the lymph nodes around her heart.

I have to say it was the most taxing and exhausting year. Mum was a fighter but emotionally she became a wreck, lashing out at the one person she knew she could. Dad. One minute she is telling him to find someone for when she passes and then when an old friend/ ex girlfriend gets in touch. All hell is let loose and I was stuck in the middle. I could see both sides and I tried my hardest to stay neutral, but mums bitterness was vile and painful. It spoiled most every day, when I was trying my best to cherish the time we had together. In the end I screamed out in anguish after yet another earbashing, telling her I wish you were dead! That is the most awful thing anyone could ever say, but it did stop mum in her tracks and I think made her realise that her behaviour was wrong. Our relationship did change for the better, but she would still not recognise Mary or Dad, she shut him out of her life until near the very end.

She tried her best to mend the bridges, which I do love her for. It was tough on her and don't get me wrong I could see her point of view as well. Yet, she realised that what she had once done was far worse, than the platonic relationship Dad shared with Mary.

It wasn't long after that mum tried to take her life again. The pain was getting to much for her to bear and she had seen me achieve my gold medal, so she knew i was on to the first steps of a new career. The irony was she didn't die of the overdose. Once again she had failed, she did try earlier when she was first diagnosed. But, it was finally her time to go, I think the overdose gave her body the opportunity to finally let go of her willful mind.

I have found it hard to except Mary and I do feel that I should attempt to try, mum had given her blessing in the end. I just find it hard because of what I had to go through during that year with mums vicious hate. I am happy that Dad has someone, my anger is unfounded. Yes, it still feels awkward but she is not replacing mum just supporting dad in a way as a daughter I could not. And, I don't mean in the physical sense.

Happiness is the most important thing we can have in this life. Illness's can rob families of this. It is so easy for us to judge without having all the facts. I know now that if ever I were in a relationship and I became so ill, I would want him to have that escape, to know that he is being looked after and cared for. It is very hard to be alone in this world.

I can understand your anger Carlene but talk to Mr P, give him a chance to explain. I'm sure that he would rather know why you are avoiding him, rather than furnishing your OH with lies to tell him. That is far more painful than dealing with the truth face to face.

We are all so scared to speak the truth...Why? I wish I knew! It causes more trouble in the long run, when it could have been avoided.

I am sure you will make your own choices and it is good that you can vent here, with people who do understand but we all have very different experiences and moral values. It's what makes life so interesting! Also hearing other peoples P.O.V gives you a chance to look at things from a different angle. I know how difficult it can be dealing with conflicting emotions. It is never easy.

I wish you the best

Kind regards

suzanne x

[Carlene 12]

Thank you, Suzanne, for sharing your story. I know it could not have been easy. It's amazing that your mom felt entitled to her righteous indignation, in view of her own past discretions. I guess people can justify anything in their own minds.

You are obviously a bigger person than I am, Suzanne, to hope that your spouse would have another woman to escape to if you were ill. I'm afraid I am much less charitable. It just seems very disrespectful to me. I hope that doesn't sound too selfish.

As for talking to Mr P about any of this - my DH would KILL me. I have been told in no uncertain terms that I am not to utter one single word to Mr P regarding his relationship with the caregiver. My DH talks to Mr P every day - sometimes several times a day. They have discussed it. DH has suggested (gently) that she and Mr P should be discreet and, specifically, that he (Mr P) should not move her into his house. Mr P's response was to tell my DH what a wonderful person L is....how they have a lot in common, etc. I think it's obvious that Mr P and L decided on a course of action some time ago. And I have decided on mine. I'm not going to be a false friend to L. I will be polite to her if we cross paths but I won't be going to "their" home or out to the movies with them. I certainly can't eat with them. Stress makes my band tighten up like a virgin on prom night.

Ironically, my husband's ex-wife was a smoker and Mr and Mrs P abhor the smell of smoke. So they did not socialize with DH and ex Mrs DH, who were married for 20 years. I guess the stench of infidelity isn't as bad as the smell of cigarette smoke.

[carol134 0]

Carol...

I lost my mom in a very similar fashion, though she had been ill for years with Parkinson's Disease. She threw a blood clot that hit her lungs and caused pneumonia. I took her to the ER and they were treating the pneumonia, then she threw another clot, but they were able to revive her. The doctor had me fill out some forms, outlining what measures they could use to sustain her life, and which they could not. You check the boxes... yes__ no__

all down the list. It was awful. I felt like an executioner.

She was in ICU, on a Heparin drip, and her doctor was standing next to the bed when she died. A massive clot hit her brain and she was gone in a second. Not 10 minutes before, she was complaining because they hadn't brought her Breakfast.

The quality of my mom's life had been extremely poor for years. She left her house only when she had to go to the doctor. Before my mom died I thought that losing her would be the worst thing that could happen to both of us. Years later, when my husband's Cancer started to advance, I realized that I had been wrong. My mom's death was very sudden (and painless), and that in itself is a huge blessing.

Carlene: I can not in a million years imagine or endure the thought of anything worse than losing my mom, my husband is a diabetic an I think that's horrible enough! I would never be strong enough to watch my husband suffer from anything like cancer. I will pray for both of you today.

When my mom died therapy was trying to get her to walk around a bit. She would not do it so they put her back in the wheel chair and she passed away almost immediately. I feel somewhat cheated, she was only 74 years old.:cry But I know for her it was an answer to all our prayers, that the Lord would take her quickly.

You know you think you have problems till you hear someone else's and I'm so sorry for you and your DH. What a difficult thing that would be.:success1:

[libertysuzanne 1]

No Carlene you don't sound selfish. You sound perfectly human to me.

As for your DH, it seems unfair that he should expect you to accept it, without allowing you to speak to Mr P about it yourself. So all you get is second party input. Now that to me is selfish!

It is only fair that you have made your decision, as the saying goes 'what is good for the goose is good for the gander.' So lets hope your DH won't try to force you into a situation that you are not happy with. I'm suire he is probably wanting to calm the waters, but I can respect how difficult it is for you.

I hope it will sort itself in time. We are so varied in our thoughts and emotions to similar situations. Definitely makes life varied!

[Carlene 12]

Carlene: I can not in a million years imagine or endure the thought of anything worse than losing my mom, my husband is a diabetic an I think that's horrible enough! I would never be strong enough to watch my husband suffer from anything like cancer. I will pray for both of you today.

When my mom died therapy was trying to get her to walk around a bit. She would not do it so they put her back in the wheel chair and she passed away almost immediately. I feel somewhat cheated, she was only 74 years old.:cry But I know for her it was an answer to all our prayers, that the Lord would take her quickly.

You know you think you have problems till you hear someone else's and I'm so sorry for you and your DH. What a difficult thing that would be.:success1:

Carol, thank you so much for your kind words, but I think I must not have made myself clear. It was my second husband that died of Cancer. My current husband is still alive. My first husband was killed in an industrial accident. I was 27 years old and had 4 children, the oldest of which was five.

I have also lost both my parents and a grandchild (to SIDS). I have a deep faith in God, but I really am hoping for a good explanation from Him someday.

[carol134 0]

Carol, thank you so much for your kind words, but I think I must not have made myself clear. It was my second husband that died of Cancer. My current husband is still alive. My first husband was killed in an industrial accident. I was 27 years old and had 4 children, the oldest of which was five.

I have also lost both my parents and a grandchild (to SIDS). I have a deep faith in God, but I really am hoping for a good explanation from Him someday.

No that is probably my mistake, reading to fast.

I'm sure His explanation will be a very good one, although I can only guess how you must feel. One thing I am sure of with you, is that you are a very strong person.

I will pray for you and your DH anyway.

[tonya66 13]

I just have one thing to say, Nancy Reagan was a fine example of a spouse who loved their husband until death do them part. No matter what condition they are in. That is the way it was meant to be.....When we marry, we make that commitment, as hard as it may get at times, that is what we vowed and promised to do. Why people think they can ignore those, I will never know.