Let the Joyous news be spread: New Jersey votes yes on Gay civil union!

[BJean 16]

Carlene: Frankly I hope my grandson's penchant for women's shoes, clothes and other attire is just a phase. His life would be a whole lot easier if he didn't lead an "alternative lifestyle." But if he is gay, my love for him would not be compromised in any way. If he's a cross dresser, the same is true. And I do know the difference.

As for his brother... he definitely does not insist on wearing girls' clothes. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, at this point, but they do have completely different behavior in that regard. And although they are identical twins, there are many things that happen in the womb that can be a factor in their development that aren't genetic.

I do appreciate your input. Thanks. I would like to add that Wyoming residents probably aren't any more homophobic than a heckofa lot of Texans.

As for the movie and the fact that they were married, as KariK pointed out, the story was about gays in the 50's (I believe) not present day. Back then very few gay men came out of the closet. That term didn't even exist back then. They knew they would be ostracized (and sometimes even worse) if they were found out. They mostly married and had children and were miserable and had a high incidence of alcohol abuse and suicides.

Thank goodness times have changed. We're not all as Enlightened as we need to be, but at least things are getting better for gays in our society. Thank goodness we can look at a movie like "Brokeback Mountain" and have an inkling of what it must have been like to be a gay man back then. If it doesn't make you compassionate toward gays after seeing that movie, you must be very rigid in your beliefs or have a cold heart.

[Carlene 12]

Carlene, how do you see broke back mountain as a love story when you are vehimently opposed to cheating while married? Just curious. I read the other thread about your friend whose wife has the parkinsons disease. I would have approved of broke back mountain more if they hadn't had wives, that was the part that really bothered me.

It's a movie, for crying out loud. I love the Sopranos, too but I don't sanction mafia tactics.

As for my friend, who just put his very ill wife in a nursing home and is now....well, appears to be dating her caregiver, I definitely think he should wait until his wife dies before he starts dating, but I'll still be his friend, no matter what. That whole thread was about me not being comfortable socializing with him and his new girlfriend.

I wouldn't want to double date with the guys in "Brokeback Mountain", either. I think they should have either lived straight, faithful lives with their spouses, or come out of the closet (maybe moved to LA?) and lived together. I didn't say I approved of their choices - only that I loved the movie. The kissing scenes weirded me out a little, though.

[KariK 0]

I dunno I just didn't like that movie?? I don't think im cold hearted or anything though. lol I just thought it was way over rated. I wasn't alive until nearly 3 decades after the 50's so maybe I just can't relate. I love the Ellen show, and Rosie is doing pretty good on the Veiw to me, so I don't think its the gay factor that bothered me about the movie.. I just thought it droned on and on, it seemed boring to me. I mean I just didn't get the differance between a man cheating on his wife with another man and a man cheating on his wife with another woman. Cheating is cheating to me.

[KariK 0]

Oh and Carlene, I love the soprano's too, I really like the story line now that Tony is having a hard time cheating on his wife!! LOL just had to add that.

[BJean 16]

Not to belabor a point but the fact that things were so utterly horrible for gay men back then and that they were, in a way, forced to lead double lives is the point of the movie. In other words, they did cheat on their wives, but they paid the price for it either emotionally or physically.

It isn't a bad thing that you didn't like the movie - that you weren't able to relate to the characters or understand the depth of the emotions that they experienced, but it was a good movie to show how far we've come and why. I shouldn't have generalized so much and said that someone is cold-hearted if they couldn't relate to the movie, but perhaps the reason you couldn't is because you never lived in a time when gays were treated as outcasts.

In my high school, there was one gay boy (that we all knew was gay). His name was Johnnie White. Someone started a thing where Thursday was Johnnie White Day. If you thought being a "homo" was horrible and Johnnie White was a creep, you wore yellow and green on Thursday. Can you just imagine what it was like to be him?

[KariK 0]

Thats true, in my highschool, one kid stands out inparticular, he liked to wear womens skirts to school regularily. He had lots of friends in the drama (school plays) crowd. His name was Pat. It wasn't that big of an issue. And another kid stands out in my mind too, his name was Dan, and he was very good looking, and was openly gay, no big deal. I guess things have come a long way. I just couldn't relate to that movie one bit. It seemed wierd to me.

[Carlene 12]

I know a woman who married her high school sweetheart, only to find out several years and a daughter later that he was gay. She has since remarried and he has a partner. These two people still love and care about each other, but he was never in love with her. He lied to her, to himself, and to the world at large because he wanted to conform. He really did. And no one ever tried harder to "choose" a hetrosexual lifestyle.

Homosexuality chooses you, not the other way around.

[Carlene 12]

I mean I just didn't get the differance between a man cheating on his wife with another man and a man cheating on his wife with another woman. Cheating is cheating to me.

I'm not sure I agree with you, Kari. A homosexual man who marries a woman isn't spiritually married to begin with. Legally they are married, yes, but it's not a sacramental union. And it's grounds for annulment in the church and in civil court.

Back in the 50's and 60's most gay men got married to prove to themselves and society that they weren't really gay. How sad. Everybody loses....nobody wins.

[green 6]

My older friend got married. He told his wife after the birth of their first son that he was gay. Both of their sons are adults now and he and his wife are living apart. They still remain close as a family though which is a good thing. I went to see Brokeback Mountain with him. I found the movie a little long but he was very affected by it. It dealt with his era.

I know of another man whose father was gay and eventually left his marriage for this reason. This man has been left feeling permanently bitter towards his father as has his mother. He is also unable to tolerate his brother-in-law, a homosexual.

I live in a large city and life for young gay men here is much different. They are often openly gay and seem relaxed about their sexual orientation. The same seems to be true of young lesbians, I think. They have come a long way. Nevertheless, there are career paths where homosexuals still get a rough ride; I know a guy who teaches drama in a highschool who gets a lot of crap from the students, and I met a very butch lesbian who ended up quitting her teaching job. The rest of the staff treated her with hostility. Her workplace became toxic.

Though life for homosexuals has become much easier in large cities I suspect that it is still very difficult in small towns. In big cities there is usually a "gay ghetto," a part of the city where one can meet and network with other people who are gay. And there is more anonymity in the big city.

[BJean 16]

I don't know where you live in Canada, but when we lived in Montreal we learned that there was a section of town on the east side where lots of gay people lived. In fact we looked at an apartment there and the man who wanted to sublet it told us that since we had a young daughter, we might not want to live there and expose her to the gay life on the streets.

My hairdresser in Orlando was gay and he and many of his gay friends loved to vacation in Montreal because of the large gay population and the acceptance of gays there. I guess Montreal can certainly be considered a big city and your observation that life might be easier for gays in a big city would seem to hold true there.

[green 6]

I live in Toronto but I have gay friends who live in Paris who have gay friends who live in Montreal. In fact one of my Paris friends has just moved to Montreal. It is a gay-friendly city. Both Paris and Montreal have gay quartiers, by the way, as does my city.

The last week of June in this city is known as Pride Week, there are festivities in the ghetto, and these culminate in a parade on Sunday. The turn-out for this parade is now massive, well over half a million people, and so many major companies participate by providing floats advertising their wares. Also participating in the parade are a number of gay and lesbian organisations; PFLAG is one, parents of lesbian and gays. There is also a group of gay Anglicans (Episcopalians) and a number of minority/special interest groups that are gay. These are groups that carry banners and home made signs.

Even though I am not gay I've participated in the parade a few times. Long before the parade became so popular a gay friend used to have a gang of his straight friends come over to Celebrate the party with him. We would wait until a float with really good music came by and then fall in behind and dance for awhile. Now the parade is so popular that there are barricades between the public and the parade and so this is no longer possible. Most recently I marched in order to support a friend of mine who is a lesbian. My husband did too and he found the experience stressful. lol

[KariK 0]

I'm not sure I agree with you, Kari. A homosexual man who marries a woman isn't spiritually married to begin with. Legally they are married, yes, but it's not a sacramental union. And it's grounds for annulment in the church and in civil court.

Back in the 50's and 60's most gay men got married to prove to themselves and society that they weren't really gay. How sad. Everybody loses....nobody wins.

Ok well if gays are allowed to marry, and they cheat on each other is that ok then? I mean since its not a sacramental union? Whats your oppinion on this? Just curious.

I just think that marriage is sacred wether its two women, two men, one of each... its a promise that should not be broken. I think the cheating spouse loses all credibility when they cheat. Regardless of the motives or circumstances, they owe it to their spouse to be honest and upfront and leave the marriage before they cheat.

[green 6]

Ok well if gays are allowed to marry, and they cheat on each other is that ok then? I mean since its not a sacramental union? Whats your oppinion on this? Just curious.

I just think that marriage is sacred wether its two women, two men, one of each... its a promise that should not be broken. I think the cheating spouse loses all credibility when they cheat. Regardless of the motives or circumstances, they owe it to their spouse to be honest and upfront and leave the marriage before they cheat.

Is what happens inside a marriage really ever any outsider's business whether the participants be gay or straight? Most of us, the ones of us who don't live in Hollywood that is, take marriage seriously or so it is to be hoped. But maybe life isn't like that, even in heterosexual land. There are an awful lot of divorces, aren't there? And I am sure that there are infidelities that have occurred in marriages that have finally been discussed by the husband and the wife, and ultimately put up with and even forgiven.

Yes, marriage should probably be viewed as a serious life-long monogamous commitment between two individuals, and in an ideal world it would be, but this is not an ideal world. Humans are imperfect creatures and it is easy for them to make mistakes. I have observed a lot of relationships and I have read a lot of biographies and I have come to consider that emotional and intellectual fidelity are just as important, if not more so, than sexual fidelity in some marriages. It is up to the individual couple to decide what works for them, not up to any outside force.

And by the way, on a personal note, I kicked my ex-husband to the curb when I discovered that he was sexually stepping out on me. His second wife, however, loved him and valued other aspects of their relationship enough that she chose to endure his sexual infidelities. He died a couple of years ago. She is still mourning him deeply.

[KariK 0]

Well yes green, I agree that how the marriage functions is between the two that are in it. But when I say 'cheat' I mean it in the way that says one is doing things behind the others back.

[Carlene 12]

Ok well if gays are allowed to marry, and they cheat on each other is that ok then? I mean since its not a sacramental union? Whats your oppinion on this? Just curious.

I just think that marriage is sacred wether its two women, two men, one of each... its a promise that should not be broken. I think the cheating spouse loses all credibility when they cheat. Regardless of the motives or circumstances, they owe it to their spouse to be honest and upfront and leave the marriage before they cheat.

Kari...

I do agree that cheating is the worst thing one spouse can do to another. Legally speaking, however, marriage is not a religious sacrament. It is, by definition, a civil union. Many people choose not to include the traditional "forsaking all others, for better or worse, til death do us part" in their civil vows. I cannot speak to those types of marriages and what the participants promised or didn't promise. (Some women still promise to "love, honor and obey"....not me.)

My wedding vows were between us, as a couple, and God. I promised my husband and my God that I would be faithful "as long as we both shall live". Anyone who makes that promise should be prepared to keep it. But I think that gays marry straight people for all the wrong reasons, and they know going into the marriage that it's a sham. That's why I think it's somewhat different when a gay man cheats (with another man) on his straight wife. There was never a time when he was 100% committed to that relationship.