Let the Joyous news be spread: New Jersey votes yes on Gay civil union!

[Tired_Old_Man 1]

I have nothing very fancy to show anyone about the quiz that I asked you to participate in.

But here we go: Some answered "yes" to both questions and some answered "yes & no" or "no and yes". It doesn't matter. Some answered “yes, but I am trying not to be.”

The reason for my test was to show something about language. I asked

#1. Are you prejudiced?

#2. Do you discriminate?

But most, if not all of you heard:

#1. Are you prejudiced against other races or other ethnic groups, etc?

#2. Do you discriminate against other races or other ethnic groups, etc?

The reason is that words have a real definition and a connotative definition.

My answers:

#1. Is TOM prejudiced?

Of course. When I go into a restaurant for the first time and they have steak and liver on the menu, I choose steak. That is prejudice. I have never had that steak before, but I am sure that I am going to like it more that I would like the liver.

#2. Does TOM discriminate?

Of course. I just discriminated against the liver.

Well, if someone from today's society was translating a book from 500 years ago and came across the word Prejudice, he might add that late twentieth century connotation of race into his translation.

Today, when we hear the word "intercourse", we automatically add the word "sexual" to it. I remember studying the war of 1812 in history in JHS and we learned about a "Non-intercourse act". No wonder they were fighting a war, they could not relieve their tension with sex.

And here is the Prologue to Beowulf, a Poem written in England around 1000 years ago.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,

þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,

hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

5 monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,

egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð

feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,

weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,

oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra

10 ofer hronrade hyran scolde,

gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!

Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,

geong in geardum, þone god sende

folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat

15 þe hie ær drugon aldorlease

lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,

wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;

Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),

Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.

20 Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,

fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,

þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen

wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,

leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal

25 in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.

Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile

felahror feran on frean wære.

Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,

swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,

30 þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga;

leof landfruma lange ahte.

þær æt hyðe stod hringedstefna,

isig ond utfus, æþelinges fær.

Aledon þa leofne þeoden,

35 beaga bryttan, on bearm scipes,

mærne be mæste. þær wæs madma fela

of feorwegum, frætwa, gelæded;

ne hyrde ic cymlicor ceol gegyrwan

hildewæpnum ond heaðowædum,

40 billum ond byrnum; him on bearme læg

madma mænigo, þa him mid scoldon

on flodes æht feor gewitan.

Nalæs hi hine læssan lacum teodan,

þeodgestreonum, þon þa dydon

45 þe hine æt frumsceafte forð onsendon

ænne ofer yðe umborwesende.

þa gyt hie him asetton segen geldenne

heah ofer heafod, leton holm beran,

geafon on garsecg; him wæs geomor sefa,

50 murnende mod. Men ne cunnon

secgan to soðe, selerædende,

hæleð under heofenum, hwa þæm hlæste onfeng.

Yes! We had to read that in Senior's English class in high school.

That is English as spoken by the anchestors of the people who settled this country.

What I have hoped to show is though the Bible may have been inspired by God, a lot has happened to his words since then. Some of what has happened has been benevolent mistranslations or transcipt copying, but some has been maliscious tampering by emporas and kings (or queens).

Some of the problems of the meanings of the bible has to do with the prejudices (not racial) of the translators. Some with the prejudices of people who want to keep their family in power and control of the masses.

I hope that I didn't disappoint anyone with my little experiment.

[pima30 0]

All I can say to some of these post is that I'm a lesbian and a christian. I believe in god. I believe that when I die I will go to heaven. I also believe that's when I will be judged. GOD is the ONLY one who can judge me. As christian people you should not be judging anyone. BOTTOM LINE IS SEPERATE CHURCH AND STATE. It's really none of anyone's buisness who I love.

[BJean 16]

T_O_M: There you go again, turning this thread into a word thing. LOL

You made a very good point and that was exactly why I was asking how someone became familiar with the Bible. If you stumbled upon it and decided after reading it that it was manna from heaven and that for the rest of your life you were going to keep it close to your heart, that's one thing. But if you learned about it when you were attending Sunday School or Church, you should allow yourself to question the interpretations provided by the cleric in that church. Otherwise it could just be a matter of endoctrination and a form of brainwashing that you believe it was written by God and that your church's declaration that homosexuality is bad because it's in the Bible.

Maybe this is why the Methodist Church (my earliest exposure to church), referenced "lambs" of God, like the Catholic Church, my latest exposure to church. I don't think it's God's wish that we become sheep in any sense of the word.

[cal 0]

i was surprised to see this whole discussion here.

we will probably never agree. Unless a person has a personal encounter and relationship with Jesus as Lord, they will not believe the Bible.

i know i didn't. i thought those men could have written down anything they wanted but did not know that the bible says it was written by men who were moved and inspired by the Holy Spirit--Who is God.

i am against homosexual marriages becuz God is. He loves the people but not their livestyle of sin.

Sincerely,

cal

[Betsyjane 2]

Holy Cow! I never thought I'd see Beowulf again in my life! And that would have been fine! :-) When I was in college, I took a course about how the word of the Bible has changes as it has been rewritten...what chapters have been deleted and what maintained, and which changes were for political reasons. I thought it was fascinating. Literal Biblical Christians will believe the wirters were divinely inspired in their translations. Others will see the changes as motivated by man and not God. Religion is always a no-win discussion, no matter what. Unfortunately, we flawed people sometimes go to war over those differences. What I want to say is how much I appreciate everybody engaging in this discussion, and I appreciate the respect shown, even with a hot topic. It's an interesting thread.

[Betsyjane 2]

night night, all.

[cal 0]

Hi again,

Can you tell us what changed in the Bible and what was deleted?

Mormons and Jehovah Witness and some other groups have changed the bible to fit their doctrine.

God is a big enuff God to speak to His people thru His original Word....bible says Jesus is the word...and He arose and is alive.

Christianity is not a religion. Religion is people trying to be "good enuff" to please the Lord. Christians have a relationship with Jesus by repenting of their sins and asking Him to be the Lord of their life. Religion and relationship are two different things.

i never believed the bible until years ago i started reading it but had a hard time understanding it. The Holy Spirit has to enlighten a person's spirit first to understand the truth.

Hope i'm not offending anyone...i don't mean to.

cal

[Sunta 5]

I wonder if you ladies would go along with an experiment with me?

Please quote me by clicking the blue "Quote" button on the lower right and then answer two questions. I promise not to use your answers against you but I want to show you (all) something.

#1. Are you prejudiced?

#2. Do you discriminate?

No I am not prejudiced.

No I don't discriminate.

Not even against people who want to tell me who I can and can't marry. I would never discriminate against someone based on race, religion, beliefs, etc.

[HunnyBun 2]

If all people were athiest, would we ever have war?

Wouldn't it just be one big happy world with no real differences?

Other than looks, people mostly differ from one another by their beliefs, and most beliefs are shaped by religion. If we all believed that we have no creator, and noone to worship, and nothing to follow, wouldn't we just 'be'? Wouldn't it be beautiful to love each other out of simple desire for peace and love and not put heaven as an alterior motive for everything good that we do?

[KariK 0]

If all people were athiest, would we ever have war?

Wouldn't it just be one big happy world with no real differences?

Other than looks, people mostly differ from one another by their beliefs, and most beliefs are shaped by religion. If we all believed that we have no creator, and noone to worship, and nothing to follow, wouldn't we just 'be'? Wouldn't it be beautiful to love each other out of simple desire for peace and love and not put heaven as an alterior motive for everything good that we do?

I think most wars are blamed on religion, but actually stem from greed. Even if there was no religion, you'd still have greed.

[Carlene 12]

Hi again,

Can you tell us what changed in the Bible and what was deleted?

The first recorded instance of God’s Word being written down, was when the Lord Himself wrote it down in the form of ten commandments on the stone tablets delivered to Moses at the top of Mount Sinai. Biblical scholars believe this occurred between 1,400 BC and 1,500 BC… almost 3,500 years ago. The language used was almost certainly an ancient form of Hebrew, the language of Old Covenant believers.

The earliest scripture is generally considered to be the “Pentateuch”, the first five books of the Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy. These writings were passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years on scrolls made of animal skin. The Jewish scribes who painstakingly produced each scroll were perfectionists. If they made even the slightest mistake in copying, such as allowing two letters of a word to touch, they destroyed that entire panel (the last three or four columns of text), and the panel before it, because it had touched the panel with a mistake! While most Christians today would consider this behavior fanatical and even idolatrous (worshiping the scripture, rather than the One who gave it to us), it nevertheless demonstrates the level of faithfulness to accuracy applied to the preservation of God’s Word throughout the first couple of thousand years of Biblical transmission.

As we approach the last few centuries before Christ, the Jewish historical books known as the “Apocrypha” were completed, yet they were recorded in Greek rather than Hebrew. By the end of the First Century AD, the New Testament had been completed. It was preserved in Greek on Papyrus, a thin paper-like material made from crushed and flattened stalks of a reed-like plant.

These groupings of papyrus were called a “codex” (plural: “codices”). The oldest copies of the New Testament known to exist today are: The Codex Alexandrius and the Codex Sinaiticus in the British Museum Library in London, and the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican. They date back to approximately the 300’s AD. In 315 AD, Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identified the 27 Books which we recognize today as the canon of New Testament scripture.

In 382 AD, the early church father Jerome translated the New Testament from its original Greek into Latin. This translation became known as the “Latin Vulgate”, (“Vulgate” meaning “vulgar” or “common”). He put a note next to the Apocrypha Books, stating that he did not know whether or not they were inspired scripture, or just Jewish historical writings which accompanied the Old Testament.

The Apocrypha was kept as part of virtually every Bible scribed or printed from these early days until just 120 years ago, in the mid-1880’s, when it was removed from Protestant Bibles. Up until the 1880’s, however, every Christian… Protestant or otherwise… embraced the Apocrypha as part of the Bible, though debate continued as to whether or not the Apocrypha was inspired. There is no truth to the popular myth that there is something “Roman Catholic” about the Apocrypha, which stemmed from the fact that the Roman Catholics kept 12 of the 14 Apocrypha Books in their Bible, as the Protestants removed all of them. No real justification was ever given for the removal of these ancient Jewish writings from before the time of Christ, which had remained untouched and part of every Bible for nearly two thousand years.

[HunnyBun 2]

For the record, I do believe in God and I don't want anyone to label me in any negative way. I'm not arguing anyone's faith, just discussing.

[anonemouse 1]

If all people were athiest, would we ever have war?

Wouldn't it just be one big happy world with no real differences?

Other than looks, people mostly differ from one another by their beliefs, and most beliefs are shaped by religion. If we all believed that we have no creator, and noone to worship, and nothing to follow, wouldn't we just 'be'? Wouldn't it be beautiful to love each other out of simple desire for peace and love and not put heaven as an alterior motive for everything good that we do?

Unfortunately, even though I am an atheist, I still think people would find something to fight over. Religion is just one of the more popular reasons. People will start wars, whether the objective is money, power, social status, or just plain hate.

[BJean 16]

Everything in the world revolves around love and sex - not necessarily in that order.

[HunnyBun 2]

Did some posts go missing from this thread?